oh! youre a feminist? how cute!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

in christianity, the church has undoubtedly kept women down and erm .... out ... in the kitchen.

Originally Posted by Bruce

What church is that?

Originally Posted by Phil

christian, muslim, jewish etc ... choose one. theyre all pretty much the same., imo.

You said "in christianity, the church", I want to know which church?

[DanaC]

Again, rather against my better instincts I really have to defend the Church/religion, on this score. Long before Christianity or Islam, Plato had defined woman as incomplete, not a full person like the male.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1 .

Roman Catholic theologian

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

Musings of a Jewish philosopher, 200/250 years BC.

This is the basis of the oppression of women?

The severe and shameful oppression of women and their contributions to society has been hidden throughout the world or at best a rarely or untold story. The deaths of accused witches (heretics) is a direct result of this oppression and reached it’s peak from 1200 to 1800A.D. varying in range from 100,000 to 9 million persons but, the percentage of women killed, during this time, is consistent in all references. Eighty percent of the people accused, tortured, and burned during the witch hunts were women!

How were these women accused? Who pointed the finger and called them witches? Women, in most cases. For reasons of their own, most likely catty, insignificant reasons, women hurled accusations at each other providing fuel for the trials.

There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times.

True, but this is sociological, not theological.

Europe witnessed this massive hunt, torture and killing of women and men who were also viewed as pagan/heretics. The pagans refused to give up their matrilineal culture and practices. Their very lives of planting and harvesting depended on it. The witch hunts became a useful vehicle as an attempt to stamp out the ancient pagan traditions built around the worship of the Goddess and Gods. “If life is inherently evil, the church fathers needed someone to blame; and who better to blame than woman, who creates life from her own body? Living women, also, can be publicly punished, as the iconic and illusory Devil can never be.” 2 Plus the church had a long tradition of taking over the most celebrated pagan holidays and began to call them Christian to gain the support of the people of the land. The church hijacked the yearly pagan celebration of the Sun and made it the celebration of the son now called Christmas.

You're mixing apples and oranges and plums and grapes. Not every US against THEM, that happened in history is the responsibility of the church just because they were present. We have chaplains in the military but that doesn't make the church responsible for wars we fight. Yes, I know, they started plenty of their own wars..... that doesn't negate my point.

Speaking of war, the battle of the sexes predates all the religions. Men had been fighting the battle of the sexes for thousands of years, because women don't want men to do what they want to do.
Religions, founded by men, were another male dominated organization, but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness. Women "civilized" the frontiers, smoothed the cultural rough edges and generally made men behave, by way of the church, because it was the only organization they were allowed to join, the only place they were allowed to congregate and conspire.

[DanaC]

How were these women accused? Who pointed the finger and called them witches? Women, in most cases. For reasons of their own, most likely catty, insignificant reasons, women hurled accusations at each other providing fuel for the trials.

Plenty of accusations came from men.

Speaking of war, the battle of the sexes predates all the religions. Men had been fighting the battle of the sexes for thousands of years, because women don't want men to do what they want to do.

And women had been fighting the battle of the sexes because men don't want women to do what they want to do.

but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness. Women "civilized" the frontiers, smoothed the cultural rough edges and generally made men behave, by way of the church, because it was the only organization they were allowed to join, the only place they were allowed to congregate and conspire.

Depends on which era of Church history you are talking about. In the 8th and 9th centuries an increasing number of women joined holy orders....but they were really only the elite and their level of control was seriously limited. Later, in the 11th and 12th centuries many monastic orders stopped supporting sisterhoods, enacting rules to prevent the founding of any further convents and banning priests and monks from ministering to women.

Much of the softening of those cultural rough edges came from male clerics (such as the Peace of God movement) and women played a very small role in any of it until relatively recently.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm talking about the last two centuries as far as culture and civilization for anyone but the wealthy.

[Beestie]

I think there are a lot of assumptions and widely held misconceptions being passed off as facts in this thread.

[wolf]

And that, my son, is the basis of the feminist movement.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by wolf

And that, my son, is the basis of the feminist movement.

Like the pay difference act?

If you show me a company where a man and a women with equal expierence, credentials, and all that get paid different tell me because I haven't seen it. Women tend to take lower paying jobs while males tend to take higher paying jobs so obviously there will be a pay difference.

[DanaC]

I know for a fact that this goes on in the UK

[xoxoxoBruce]

Look for,..... the union label.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Roman Catholic theologian
Musings of a Jewish philosopher, 200/250 years BC.

This is the basis of the oppression of women?


How were these women accused? Who pointed the finger and called them witches? Women, in most cases. For reasons of their own, most likely catty, insignificant reasons, women hurled accusations at each other providing fuel for the trials. True, but this is sociological, not theological.You're mixing apples and oranges and plums and grapes. Not every US against THEM, that happened in history is the responsibility of the church just because they were present. We have chaplains in the military but that doesn't make the church responsible for wars we fight. Yes, I know, they started plenty of their own wars..... that doesn't negate my point.

Speaking of war, the battle of the sexes predates all the religions. Men had been fighting the battle of the sexes for thousands of years, because women don't want men to do what they want to do.
Religions, founded by men, were another male dominated organization, but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness. Women "civilized" the frontiers, smoothed the cultural rough edges and generally made men behave, by way of the church, because it was the only organization they were allowed to join, the only place they were allowed to congregate and conspire.

all very good points, but still doesnt lessen the impact of oppression and subjugation against women, whether by pre-christianity, or any other organised religion which has survived to today. lets face it, the womens' role in the church has been flower arranging and organising tea parties for fundraising.
are you aware of the lost gospels? e.g., the gospel according to Mary, which, among 20 odd other gospels were omitted from the bible by the council of micea, because it did not want Mary's (and others) words to be part of Jesus' teachings, hence the MEN cast her as a prostitute.

That women of equal/or better background & training are not paid the same, and not promoted the same, as men in the same position shows just how right our mothers have been about the fact that most of us never grew out of being those sad-sick little-boys.
This is why most of my friends are women.

There is one reason and one reason alone for the glass ceiling - fear.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phil

all very good points, but still doesn't lessen the impact of oppression and subjugation against women, whether by pre-christianity, or any other organised religion which has survived to today. lets face it, the womens' role in the church has been flower arranging and organising tea parties for fundraising.
are you aware of the lost gospels? e.g., the gospel according to Mary, which, among 20 odd other gospels were omitted from the bible by the council of micea, because it did not want Mary's (and others) words to be part of Jesus' teachings, hence the MEN cast her as a prostitute.

Yes, I'm sort of aware, but certainly not a scholar on the subject. There have been several good articles (Smithsonian magazine was exceptional) and TV shows on Mary Magdalene and her position in the history purported to be shown in the Bible. A fair amount of publicity on the "lost" (unselected?) gospels spurred by the "Gospel of Judas" as National Geographics most popular story of 2006. This of course was helped by the Da Vinci Code movie.

Originally Posted by Bruce

Religions, founded by men, were another male dominated organization, but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness.

Men had effectively divided and conquered women, keeping them from uniting in an effective defense (or offense), by not allowing women outside each family to congregate. The Church changed that in that women especially in rural/agricultural settings were first allowed to congregate, sometimes for most of the day(Sunday). This afforded the opportunity to compare notes, when the men thought they were swapping recipes and child rearing advice.

Then, when men threatened "be chaste and obedient or you'll not get to heaven" the women turned this around on the men, who were caught in a catch 22 of their own making. Soon Ladies Auxiliaries and clubs were formed, within the church. Yes, ostensibly for flower arranging and fund raising, but a chance for women to get organized, learning how to work together and assert their rights.

The church was male dominated in it's structure and teaching, but under it's blanket of social activities it was a very valuable tool for women seeking to throw off thousands of years of subservience.

[Hippikos]

Feminism gives me visions of Vagina Monologues and Germaine Greer...*shivers*. I prefer the word emancipation.

The church was male dominated in it's structure and teaching, but under it's blanket of social activities it was a very valuable tool for women seeking to throw off thousands of years of subservience.

The church always used the excuse for keeping the women inside the house that is was too dangerous outside for them.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Phil

There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times.

I doubt this is provable, especially the "pre-Paleolithic" part. I think whoever told you that can't prove it either, and was talking... stuff.

Really, this language sounds like that burgher in Cabaret who said to Michael York's character, "It iss an established fact that zere iss a conspiracy of Jews..." I'd stay suspicious as hell of this, and of much of the rest of the paragraph I took this from.