Social Obligations & Immunization - Page 4

monster · 10-09-2007, 08:15 AM

Lost of refusal to vaccinate here, two cases of measles this month......

but I'm still on the fence about vaccinations against diseases which are non-fatal to the majority. How's that for taking a position?

My kids are vaccinated against most stuff. I didn't want them to get the chicken pox shot, but it was included on the list of vaccinations required for their greencards, so... They do not get a flu shot, I do. They've never had flu, I haven't had flu for 10 years.... (what's the betting that this is our lucky year.....

)

monster · 10-09-2007, 08:23 AM

(I'd be more inclined to get them a flu shot if I could see more evidence of it's effectiveness, but anecdotally it seems that many people who get the shot still get the flu, and I've heard from several friends in the biz that the model used for predicting the flu strains prevalent each year is off-kilter, so the vaccines are only against a few of the more long-lingering strains.)

I do subscribe to the idea that one should consider the impact on society as a whole when considering whether to vaccinate, but I'm always going to put my kids first, and I'm really wary of injecting all sorts of nasties into the body just in case they help.

People could do more good by staying at home when they're sick.

DanaC · 10-09-2007, 09:12 AM

In terms of the MMR vaccines, I'd be inclined to give it a great deal of thought and do a lot of research prior to making a decision. I do believe that one has to take into account the bigger picture: given that my (fictitious) child would be vulnerable up to the point of completing vaccination, I would hope that other children they might come into contact with would be vaccinated and free of these infectious diseases. The reverse of that argument is that should I choose not to vaccinate my child against the disease, they may well develop a natural immunity, but in doing so they may be infectious themselves at some point when they come into contact with an unimmunised child.

The need for research, however, is necessary. When I was little I was given the first part of the vaccination, and my ordinary childhood excema exploded into one of the worst cases the specialist had ever seen, pretty much overnight. Mum is convinced, and some of the doctors suspected, that the vaccine was responsible. I didn't have the second vaccination, nor did I have the later vaccinations and boosters.

A few years ago I had the flu vaccine for the first time. That winter I got one of the worst doses of flu I ever had. That said, my brother and my partner had flu around the same time and both were far worse than me, and ended up with temperatures so high they were delirious. So...I don't know if the flu I caght would have been worse had my body not already been exposed to it...if indeed it was a strain covered by the vaccine. Or, the flu vaccine may have had no bearing whatsoever.

Another thing to consider when deciding whether or not to go with the flu vaccine, particulary with regard to children, is the presence of chicken albumen in the vaccine. Egg is one of the most common foods that children develop sensitivity to, so it's worth checking that out with the doctor before making a decision on flu vaccines.

monster · 10-09-2007, 10:20 AM

School email just announced now up to 4 cases of measles in two schools, but all related.

Clodfobble · 10-09-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

I didn't want them to get the chicken pox shot, but it was included on the list of vaccinations required for their greencards, so...

Ultimately I let my kid get the chicken pox shot too, because I figured that if everyone else in his school was immunized, there'd be nowhere for him to catch it from and get natural immunity until he was older and it was more dangerous.

Cloud · 10-09-2007, 11:43 AM

We've had measles here, too, and they are requiring all kids going into middle school to get them.

Since I live on the US/Mexico border, we have a lot of public health issues not found elswehere. Things like TB make appearances here more than other places.

SamIam · 10-09-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivant

Hi, Sam. I'm hesitant to share a background for a few reasons: (a) I'm new here and leery of sharing personal information beyond what I've already shared, and (b) the nature of my post isn't to convince anybody to change his or her mind, simply to start a discussion - so it shouldn't matter if my background is in epidemiology or in waste management, I just want some dialogue, and (c) if I did say epidemiology would any one believe that now anyhow? LOL So in that vein, my immediate relevant qualifications are simply that I have an opinion on the data I've researched. I'm not putting myself out in cyberspace as an expert on anything other than my family.

Fair enough. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivant

Smallpox has been successfully treated homeopathically for centuries. On the off-chance I contract smallpox (most likely to happen from an act of terrorism) this will be my first course of action. I might still die. I might still die of smallpox even if I had been immunized for smallpox. It's a gamble either way, and we all have to weigh the odds unique to our respective situations.

I, too, question the homeopathic treatment of smallpx. I also question another post where you say that disease kills the weakest. How do you define "weakest"? Many, many healthy people have died from infectious disease. A prime example is the Native Americans who were here in North America at the time Eurpeans arrived, bearing all sorts of infectious pathogens that the Native Americans had never been exposed to. Some researchers estimate that as much as 80% of the original American Indian population was killed by infectious diseases from Europe (including small pox). Were Native Americans "less fit"? I don't think so.

No one gets innoculated against small pox anymore. The disease is considered to be eradicated BECAUSE of widespread innoculations, NOT homeopathic treatments. So, if you were exposed to a small pox outbreak at some unknown point in the future, chances are good that it would be the result of terrorists getting hold of one of the two sources of small pox left in the world: a culture maintained by the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta or another culture which is maintained somewhere in the former Soviet Union.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivant

My biggest concern about smallpox: Do we trust that the live-virus vaccine of decades past will hold up to the genetically reproduced version of the disease that we are most likely to encounter today?

Of course we don't. We are going to have to figure that any smallpox or other pox virus capable of infecting human beings is either a product of terrorist genetic tampering or a new form of pathogen which has naturally mutated to infect human beings with a high degree of virulence. Would I accept a vaccine against what amounts to a new disease if one could be found in time? Yes, I would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivant

I'll spare you the Kumbaya. this time.

"Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya..."

Clodfobble · 10-09-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamIam

Were Native Americans "less fit"? I don't think so.

Genetically speaking, yes they were. Being fit means having whatever it takes to survive in the environment you find yourself in. That environment may change, and the definition of who is fittest may change because of it. The Native Americans also gave Europeans quite a few nasty diseases they'd never encountered before either... but they weren't as deadly to the Europeans as the European diseases were to the Native Americans.

Aliantha · 10-09-2007, 05:27 PM

The herd is much larger than I thought. I really thought there would have been at least a couple of others prepared to support the case presented in the original post of this thread.

My faith in society is restored somewhat.

jinx · 10-09-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

No heavy metals or active strains, to be more specific. No mercury or formaldehyde (I am allergic to formaldehyde and did not want it injected into my son)... yes, you can get them that way.

...
Again, he has not missed one and has had many of his voluntary shots for a four-year-old. We have a progressive Dr. Most won't even tell you that they are available.

Seriously rk, can you name some names here?
I don't understand how you can receive all the vaccines on the schedule and not be exposed to formaldehyde, for example. All of the vaccines licensed for use in the US for Hep A and Hep B are inactivated with formalin (A 37% aqueous (water) solution of formaldehyde, a pungent gas, with the chemical formula HCHO)

So did you skip those, or use unlicensed ones, or what?

...

This site has some interesting graphs. Notice the decline even in diseases we don't vaccinate for...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc

Because through an agressive world wide vaccination program we essentially eliminated it. I believe the last case was in Somalia some years ago. I believe the only reason to continue to get it would be if you were to be exposed to a weaponized form. Even the military stopped giving it to everyone, only certain groups still get it.

The adverse events are the other side of the risk/benefit ratio. It's a low benefit (its not a big threat, other than thru terrorism), high risk vaccine at this point.

Quote:

Vaccination of contacts plus isolation is expected to result in 7 deaths (from vaccine or smallpox) in a scenario involving the release of variola virus from a laboratory, 19 deaths in a human-vector scenario, 300 deaths in a building-attack scenario, 2735 deaths in a scenario involving a low-impact airport attack, and 54,729 deaths in a scenario involving a high-impact airport attack.

TheMercenary · 10-10-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

but I'm still on the fence about vaccinations against diseases which are non-fatal to the majority.

Such as?

Take the Chickenpox. Kids get it and it is most always self limiting. When are you contagious from the Chickenpox?

Quote:

Chickenpox is highly infectious and spreads from person to person by direct contact or through the air from an infected person’s coughing or sneezing or from aerosolization of virus from skin lesions. A person with chickenpox is contagious 1-2 days before the rash appears and until all blisters have formed scabs. It takes from 10-21 days after exposure for someone to develop chickenpox.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/aci...nza1-fiore.pdf

Quote:

Before licensure of the varicella vaccine in 1995, each year there were about four million cases of varicella, 13,500 hospitalizations and 150 deaths.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/news/new...006/200607.htm

But have that same asymptomatic child around a pregnant woman or an adult who has never had it and the consequences can be devestating.

How many people die from the flu every year?

As of June 2007, there have been pediatric deaths from 2006-2007.

19,000 people died each year from Influenza between 1976 and 1990. Since 1990 that number has increased to 36,000 deaths per year.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...nloads/flu.pdf

HungLikeJesus · 10-12-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The most obvious and most frequently ignored is the flu shot. That is a big one. Hundreds of people die in the US from the flu each year. Everyone should be getting it.

....

Merc, why do you say that everyone should be getting the flu? I had either a flu or food poisoning last week, and I didn't like it.

TheMercenary · 10-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

Merc, why do you say that everyone should be getting the flu? I had either a flu or food poisoning last week, and I didn't like it.

Sundae · 10-13-2007, 11:16 AM

Dad went for his flu vaccine this morning. I think since he was rushed into hospital earlier this year he figures he should take all the help he can get.

Mum says she was offered it every year until she retired (last year) but refused it each time. She saw too many people ill immediately afterwards. I didn't question why Dad was having it in that case, it would probably have started her off on how stubborn he is.

TheMercenary · 10-14-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Dad went for his flu vaccine this morning. I think since he was rushed into hospital earlier this year he figures he should take all the help he can get.

Mum says she was offered it every year until she retired (last year) but refused it each time. She saw too many people ill immediately afterwards. I didn't question why Dad was having it in that case, it would probably have started her off on how stubborn he is.

The point I was trying to make is that most of us view the Flu as nothing more than a bother for about a week or 10 days, when in fact many people die from the common flu each year.

10-09-2007, 08:15 AM	#46
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Lost of refusal to vaccinate here, two cases of measles this month...... but I'm still on the fence about vaccinations against diseases which are non-fatal to the majority. How's that for taking a position? My kids are vaccinated against most stuff. I didn't want them to get the chicken pox shot, but it was included on the list of vaccinations required for their greencards, so... They do not get a flu shot, I do. They've never had flu, I haven't had flu for 10 years.... (what's the betting that this is our lucky year..... ) __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

10-09-2007, 08:23 AM	#47
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	(I'd be more inclined to get them a flu shot if I could see more evidence of it's effectiveness, but anecdotally it seems that many people who get the shot still get the flu, and I've heard from several friends in the biz that the model used for predicting the flu strains prevalent each year is off-kilter, so the vaccines are only against a few of the more long-lingering strains.) I do subscribe to the idea that one should consider the impact on society as a whole when considering whether to vaccinate, but I'm always going to put my kids first, and I'm really wary of injecting all sorts of nasties into the body just in case they help. People could do more good by staying at home when they're sick. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

10-09-2007, 10:20 AM	#49
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	School email just announced now up to 4 cases of measles in two schools, but all related. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

10-09-2007, 11:43 AM	#51
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	We've had measles here, too, and they are requiring all kids going into middle school to get them. Since I live on the US/Mexico border, we have a lot of public health issues not found elswehere. Things like TB make appearances here more than other places. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

10-09-2007, 05:27 PM	#54
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	The herd is much larger than I thought. I really thought there would have been at least a couple of others prepared to support the case presented in the original post of this thread. My faith in society is restored somewhat. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-09-2007, 09:12 AM	#48
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	In terms of the MMR vaccines, I'd be inclined to give it a great deal of thought and do a lot of research prior to making a decision. I do believe that one has to take into account the bigger picture: given that my (fictitious) child would be vulnerable up to the point of completing vaccination, I would hope that other children they might come into contact with would be vaccinated and free of these infectious diseases. The reverse of that argument is that should I choose not to vaccinate my child against the disease, they may well develop a natural immunity, but in doing so they may be infectious themselves at some point when they come into contact with an unimmunised child. The need for research, however, is necessary. When I was little I was given the first part of the vaccination, and my ordinary childhood excema exploded into one of the worst cases the specialist had ever seen, pretty much overnight. Mum is convinced, and some of the doctors suspected, that the vaccine was responsible. I didn't have the second vaccination, nor did I have the later vaccinations and boosters. A few years ago I had the flu vaccine for the first time. That winter I got one of the worst doses of flu I ever had. That said, my brother and my partner had flu around the same time and both were far worse than me, and ended up with temperatures so high they were delirious. So...I don't know if the flu I caght would have been worse had my body not already been exposed to it...if indeed it was a strain covered by the vaccine. Or, the flu vaccine may have had no bearing whatsoever. Another thing to consider when deciding whether or not to go with the flu vaccine, particulary with regard to children, is the presence of chicken albumen in the vaccine. Egg is one of the most common foods that children develop sensitivity to, so it's worth checking that out with the doctor before making a decision on flu vaccines.

10-13-2007, 11:16 AM	#59
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Dad went for his flu vaccine this morning. I think since he was rushed into hospital earlier this year he figures he should take all the help he can get. Mum says she was offered it every year until she retired (last year) but refused it each time. She saw too many people ill immediately afterwards. I didn't question why Dad was having it in that case, it would probably have started her off on how stubborn he is. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

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