Guns don't kill people ....

[henry quirk]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/iscs11.pdf

[orthodoc]

When we first arrived in PA I thought the locked school doors with cameras and the need to be buzzed in by office staff were way over the top. Then we moved back to Ontario for a couple of years and I noticed that drug dealers loitered in the front hall of the high school my kids attended with pit bulls in tow. My second son was assaulted by one of them; had a knife held to his face with the promise that he'd be cut into ribbons the next time the guy saw him.

The school ignored it all, and the police told us there was no use arresting the guy, he'd be out within an hour.

I'm all in favor of locked school doors and secure campuses.

[Ibby]

Vermont has more or less the loosest gun laws. It has very little gun crime.
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

[bluecuracao]

Philly is either the current or a recent murder capital of the U.S., and gun laws here are inadequate. Our problems have more to do with illegal guns, but there are plenty of legal gun problems, too. There are shootings practically every day, it seems. A lot of those involve children.

The police make arrests for illegal guns all the time, but complain that the perps are just let back out on the street. Another source of frustration is the Florida loophole. Pennsylvania recognizes Florida gun permits that anyone can apply for via mail order--even those who can't get a PA permit. And then there are the straw purchasers. When and if they are actually caught, their punishments are light even if the guns they bought are used in crimes.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Ibby

...
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

This is exactly what I keep thinking.

Root cause analysis.

Sadly, what can you do? Reasonable voices get shouted down. Our mindset is sickened, diminished by cynicism. I don't know what a feasible solution to the underlying problem would even look like. It's something that the cards are stacked against.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Vermont has more or less the loosest gun laws. It has very little gun crime.
I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

Originally Posted by Flint

This is exactly what I keep thinking.

Root cause analysis.

Sadly, what can you do? Reasonable voices get shouted down. Our mindset is sickened, diminished by cynicism. I don't know what a feasible solution to the underlying problem would even look like. It's something that the cards are stacked against.

All I can say is that I agree. We can call people out when they're being stupifucks... I actually had a father of a 5 year old emotionally disturbed child using first person shooter video games to babysit his son on his Dad weekends. Shit like that. Maybe letting people know that their gun fetish is part of the problem. We need to look in the damn mirror.

[henry quirk]

Hyperbole.

[ZenGum]

After the Port Arthur massacre of 1996, we (Australia) tightened our gun laws, which were already tighter than those in the US.

The main change was that semi-autos and pump-actions can have a magazine capacity of no more than five shots. You needed to show specific reason for having one, such as being a professional shooter.

[Ibby]

not even a little bit

[henry quirk]

No. This ("death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE") as descriptor for America, is exaggeration taken to an absurd point.


If all you see is one extreme aspect of America, ignoring all others, then you suffer from skewed thinking.

Take a friggin' walk -- with 'open' eyes -- through any town or city you care to name: you'll see all manner of extremisms running along side all manner of moderatisms and all manner of down-right placid, peaceful, and serene-isms.


Hyperbole is the tool of the Sophist (there's more than one of those in this place...are you one?)


Decisions made in the midst of anger or grief are always bad decisions.

Reaction is the enemy of response.

Long past time, I think, for folks to 'stop' and 'think'.

It 'feels good' to be righteous, but righteous is not always 'right'.

I, for one, will not follow you (or any one) down the path of 'good intentions'.

[Flint]

I don't think the intent is to portray American culture as monolithic, but conversely, is it feasible to propose that there are no systemic cultural issues? Don't you think it's possible that anomolies that arise within a culture can indiacte a systemic problem? That is to say, in the simplest form, that a different set of variables will alter the outcome of a complex scenario? More precisely, if one could indentify the correct variables (as I said, Root Cause Analysis) at least the call to action wouldn't risk being made blindly. As you said, stop and think--that's what we're doing here.

Reaction is the enemy of response.

Long past time, I think, for folks to 'stop' and 'think'.

As H.L. Mencken said, "There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong."

[henry quirk]

I addressed Ibby's hyperbole (and the skewed thinking it stems from), not "systemic cultural issues", but, since you bring it up...


No, I don't think -- in a country of 350 million individuals (and counting), situated on a planet with 7 billion individuals (and counting) -- it's possible to "indentify the correct variables ".

Every single person is a "variable".

[Flint]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

...
No, I don't think -- ... -- it's possible to "indentify the correct variables ".

So we can 1) act blindly, or 2) do nothing. Or, 3) "stop and think" --BUT WAIT, if we to refuse to consider any systemic flaws in society, then what the hell is there to stop and think about??? Sorry, not trying to mince words, I just don't understand. It sounds like you're objecting to people doing what you prescribe them to do. You want people to stop and think, but you don't them to think "wrong" ideas...? As every person is a variable, you also can't just sweep alternate viewpoints under the rug.

Originally Posted by Ibby

I think the problem here isn't gun laws or mental health support - it's the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive CULTURE in this country.

This is the most astute observation I've heard in relation to this whole event, and one that cuts closest to the real truth in this, as I see it. This is a super subjective statement and could mean 1,000 different things to 1,000 different people. It meant something to me, and it meant exactly what I've been thinking. In fact, every time the talking heads are talking this issue to death, I think to myslef, THIS, what Ibby has said here, THIS is the problem nobody is talking about. I think this is because it is prohibitively complex, as you've said, as I've said. But as far as identifying the root cause, I can't disagree that the products of a culture are produced by the culture that produced them, therefore therein lies the problem. It's blatantly obvious, isn't it? I don't understand what the disagreement could be. Here, let me rephrase this, the way I read it:

we must not neglect to consider "...the death-fetishizing, sensationalist, and destructive--" (and other, implied) aspects of the "--CULTURE in this country..." when observing events which occur within the aforementioned culture, AS THEY ARE INEXORABLY LINKED

[footfootfoot]

That is exactly the reason I paint with a broad brush.

[Griff]

Cuz you need to get the first coat on by noon?