Illegal Immigrants Are Killing Us

[lookout123]

You see, the main issue with illegal aliens is that...well, there illegal. They are breaking the law, they are here illegallly.

forget it hobbs, they don't have illegals traipsing through their backyards so this is purely intellectual for them. now if they move down here, they might be more interested in seeing the reality of it. if i think about it i will take some pics of Bell road some morning and post it. then everyone can see the illegals standing around waiting for someone to come and illegally hire their illegal asses.

Well this has totally buggered up my holiday plans. It was going to be a choice between Mexico and New Orleans.

go to mexico. it is a wonderful vacation spot (many parts), and you will be putting money into their economy, maybe getting some to stay home.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

There is a special tax ID number with which illegal immigrants can use to pay wage tax and Social Security. It's estimated that they pay in BILLIONS, and they usually do not end up collecting Social Security.

[dripping]I'm sure that they are applying for these "special tax ID numbers" in droves. [/sarcasm]

[Tonchi]

I regret having to bring this thread up again, but one of the people covering Katrina cleanup efforts showed film of busloads of hispanic immigrants being BROUGHT IN from North Carolina by one retailer, to clean up his facilities! If this is not the absolute utmost, preposterous, non-PC joke yet! 68,000 people out of work in the area so he imports immigrants.

If interviewed, would he have said, as did Mexican President Vicente Fox, that this is work that he can't even find blacks who would take it?

[mrnoodle]

Put your knee back in joint. Our grandparents were legal immigrants. Legal.

Legal.

They did not break the law and expect everyone else to congratulate them for it. I have no doubt that, like any other group of people, illegal immigrants comprise both good and bad folks. I'm sure they just want to make a living. I've worked alongside them in factories, warehouses, and fields. Half of my friends are of Mexican descent, several are from Mexico, and I can't count the number of people from that country I've hung out with over the years.

Oh by the way....a great number of them are pissed off that their countrymen are bringing heat down on the heads of honest, law-abiding immigrants. But if you think that any substantial number of illegals are paying taxes (or anything else), you're high. "It's estimated" is a garbage phrase. There is no way to estimate anything about them -- it's pure guesswork, because no one knows how many of them are here.

It's estimated that 100% of the illegals I worked with in a motorcycle helmet factory several years ago were paid in cash, and it was barely enough to get drunk on. You want burden? One of them broke his leg (actually it was nearly torn off) in a garbage compactor, and after he went to the emergency room, immigration got wind of the situation and cleared almost the whole factory out. Who knows what his bill was for the leg? Who knows what the cost of running his 50-odd coworkers through the system was? Who cares, anyway. We better cough it up, or else we're racist and xenophobic.

Yes, we should have compassion. That's why I said we should make it easier to get in legally. I think there should be some leeway for people who have been here a long time and have proven themselves to be productive members of our society. But fuck this noise about "if you don't like illegals pouring over the borders in record numbers, you're against Mexicans." It's a lie.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

"It's estimated" is a garbage phrase. There is no way to estimate anything about them -- it's pure guesswork, because no one knows how many of them are here.

Alright, if that's the case, what are we so worried about? No one knows how many of them are here. How can we possibly know how much they're bleeding us dry for?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Oh by the way....a great number of them are pissed off that their countrymen are bringing heat down on the heads of honest, law-abiding immigrants.

Sure, Latinos talk crap about "wetbacks"--it's nothing new. Some of the same folks who complain had a parent or grandparent who came over illegally. Hypocrisy exists everywhere.

[Dagney]

[quote=bluecuracao]Alright, if that's the case, what are we so worried about? No one knows how many of them are here. How can we possibly know how much they're bleeding us dry for?


Because although we do not know _exactly_ how many are here, we do have a count of the ones that we _do_ know are here. You take that number, do some magical mathmatic extrapoloation, and voila` a calculation of how many of our tax dollars are going to support people who don't belong here.

The industry I work in tracks information on each of the number of children that born daily. The government collects statistical information from that data and can calculate where the larger communities of undocumented aliens are located.

The public welfare systems are taxed by the mere presence of these interlopers. Hospitals that recieve public funds by law are not allowed to turn anyone away. (I'm verifying that this is the truth, not just how I remember it during my time working for DPW in PA) That fact alone causes a massive outpouring of funds to treat people who contribute little or nothing to the system.

So yes, there are some fairly sizeable things to worry about.

[Radar]

The legal/illegal distinction holds no water. When our grandparents came here, all they had to do to be legal was show up. Immigrants from Mexico should be able to do the same thing.

And nobody has addressed the fact that the federal government is given no authority over immigration by the U.S. Constitution. It is given authority over "naturalization", but not immigration.

There should be no limits on the number or country of origin of immigrants. If we get rid of handouts, we can be sure they're coming for opportunity, not welfare. Mexican immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes (a crime has not been committed unless the rights, property, or person of a non-consenting other are violated....this means using drugs, prostitution, suicide, walking across the border, etc. are NOT crimes) than the people born here.

[mrnoodle]

Why must everyone couch this argument in useless blather about class warfare? It's not about their Mexicanness, it's not about their sorry state of affairs at home. It's not about whether or not they have good intentions. It's about an already suffocated welfare system, border-state hospitals in financial crisis, and a border that serves as a flashing neon welcome mat to terrorists, terrorist weapons, drug runners, and slave traders.

We're supposed to be all-compassionate, all-giving, ever-welcoming and supportive, but require nothing of those we're so damn nice to. It is not too much to ask to require that if you live and work in this country, you get your name on the books. You on the left who are so enamored of the liberal, refined ways of the United Nations: pick a UN country whose immigration policy you'd like to adopt in this situation.

I could be wrong, but I'm betting you don't find one that says "Sure, come as you are, we don't need to see your credentials. Have fun, enjoy your stay."

edit:
FWIW, marichiko, i was looking at my family's history in the Civil War while I was in NC. They were mostly privates in the Confederacy, and about half were deserters. I know from white trash. And the ratio of useless white person to working Mexican is 32:1 in southern Colorado. What's your point? No restrictions for anyone, unless they're white? I'm only half kidding...that's what most rhetoric from the other side sounds like to me.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

edit:
FWIW, marichiko, i was looking at my family's history in the Civil War while I was in NC. They were mostly privates in the Confederacy, and about half were deserters. I know from white trash. And the ratio of useless white person to working Mexican is 32:1 in southern Colorado. What's your point? No restrictions for anyone, unless they're white? I'm only half kidding...that's what most rhetoric from the other side sounds like to me.

FWIW back at you, my family didn't even fight in the civil war. I could not be a member of the Confedrate Daughters of America or whatever they're called. A lot of southerners deserted the ranks to go home and plow their spring crops. A lot deserted because they were worried about their families. The hardships the Civil War imposed on the South were far higher than what it imposed on the North. I once asked my Dad why our family didn't fight in the War between the States, and he looked very surprised. "We were poor people. We weren't interested in keeping slaves, and the fighting never really came near our farms, so we didn't have to worry about defending our homes." Pragmatists, they were. But this is off topic.

I made the comment I did because some folks were getting all huffy about how THEIR ancestors came here legally like this somehow made them better than more recent immigrants. 100 years ago, the US was begging for immigrants. It was no big deal to come here legally. 300 years ago Britain used the southern colonies as a dumping ground for undesirables back in the British Isles. In MY case, I was just pointing out that the fact that my ancestors coming here legally in chains did not make them better than the folks who now come here illegally to work and are forced to LEAVE in chains.

The statement I made to Wolf still stands. I do not see how we can place the full blame on the Mexican illegal worker when it is the American farmers, ranchers and businessmen who hire them under the table, knowing full well that they are illegals. You can't place the sole responsibility on the Mexican workers.

WE are a finite country, and we must accept this fact. There are only so many jobs here to go around. We would be committing suicide as a nation to just throw our southern border open to all who wanted to cross it. Mexican workers do fill a certain need in the labor market, however. They will work harder and for lower wages and benefits than most American workers are willing to work for.

We can put up a 20 foot concrete wall that runs continuously from San Diego to El Paso and gun down all illegals on sight. We will then pay a higher price for any number of agricultural products, services, etc. We can re-instate something like the old Bracero program where Mexican workers come in legally for short periods of time to do the work they do for bargain prices and then go home. We can crack down HARD on employers who use illegals. It is these employers, as much as anyone else, who are forcing the American tax payer to cover schooling, etc, for the illegals. The Mexican people want to work. That's all. We can't let all of them in, but we could stop looking at just one aspect of the problem and look to the bigger picture for solutions.

As far as the hispanic population of Southern Colorado, do you know what you're talking about?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I made the comment I did because some folks were getting all huffy about how THEIR ancestors came here legally like this somehow made them better than more recent immigrants. 100 years ago, the US was begging for immigrants. It was no big deal to come here legally. 300 years ago Britain used the southern colonies as a dumping ground for undesirables back in the British Isles. In MY case, I was just pointing out that the fact that my ancestors coming here legally in chains did not make them better than the folks who now come here illegally to work and are forced to LEAVE in chains.

The ancestors who came legally are no "better" than the new immigrants who come legally. However, both of those groups are entitled to more than the illegal immigrants of both generations. We owe our citizens lifelibertyandthepursuitofhappiness, but we don't owe anyone else's citizens dick. That said, there is an argument to be made that we should worry about our neighbors before we worry about Africa. But just managing to walk across a fence and swim a river does not make you a citizen.

Incidentally, the dictionary definition of "immigrant" is "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence", not "anyone who wants to get a seasonal job in one country and take the money home to another country, while taking advantage of the services and welfare systems of the first."

The statement I made to Wolf still stands. I do not see how we can place the full blame on the Mexican illegal worker when it is the American farmers, ranchers and businessmen who hire them under the table, knowing full well that they are illegals. You can't place the sole responsibility on the Mexican workers.

Very true. The American side of the equation must be dealt with, as well. But I'm curious....what would you say if you heard that the vast number of illegals coming across the border every year was being denied work and turned back at every doorstep they came to? I suspect that we would be considered evil and heartless, and the left would demand that "something be done," probably in the form of more tax money going to handouts.

WE are a finite country, and we must accept this fact. There are only so many jobs here to go around. We would be committing suicide as a nation to just throw our southern border open to all who wanted to cross it.

Right. So what are you arguing about?

Mexican workers do fill a certain need in the labor market, however. They will work harder and for lower wages and benefits than most American workers are willing to work for.

The only way for this to occur is for American ranchers, etc., to hire them illegally. If they are here legally, they must be paid minimum wage. They could also unionize. The left is guilty of racism on this issue. Not the "hang all [race]" racism, but "you're [race], so you're obviously not equipped to follow the same rules as the rest of us. Because of your race, we'll give you a pass." Patronizing and wrong.

We can put up a 20 foot concrete wall that runs continuously from San Diego to El Paso and gun down all illegals on sight. We will then pay a higher price for any number of agricultural products, services, etc. We can re-instate something like the old Bracero program where Mexican workers come in legally for short periods of time to do the work they do for bargain prices and then go home. We can crack down HARD on employers who use illegals. It is these employers, as much as anyone else, who are forcing the American tax payer to cover schooling, etc, for the illegals. The Mexican people want to work. That's all. We can't let all of them in, but we could stop looking at just one aspect of the problem and look to the bigger picture for solutions.

So where would you personally draw the line? We can't let "all" of them in, so which ones should we allow? Which should we turn back? What is the point of cracking down on employers if you're not going to stem the supply of cheap, illegal labor? Maybe Nancy Reagan could come and tell them to Just Say No?

As far as the hispanic population of Southern Colorado, do you know what you're talking about?

Intimately. At any rate, I was agreeing with you. You shouldn't argue when people are agreeing with you. I was saying that there are 32 decent hardworking Mexicans per useless militia-member white nut.

But I fell into the race trap, at any rate. My bad -- this isn't about race, as much as the left wishes it were.

Ooh. I have to call my Hispanic lawyer and make sure he got the whole $1700 for my DUI case. It almost broke me to pay him, but I'm sure his bambinos will appreciate the extra tortillas, particularly since he's in the Bahamas this week and can't support the family.

[quote=mrnoodle] But just managing to walk across a fence and swim a river does not make you a citizen.[?QUOTE]

Never said it did, and I don't think anyone else here claimed that either.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But I'm curious....what would you say if you heard that the vast number of illegals coming across the border every year was being denied work and turned back at every doorstep they came to? I suspect that we would be considered evil and heartless, and the left would demand that "something be done," probably in the form of more tax money going to handouts.

Don't quit your day job just yet, Sherlock. As a card carrying member of the ACLU, here's how'd I respond: I'd demand that All US residents go down and have genetic testing to prove the amount of Native American blood flowing in their veins. Those with less than 50% I would demand be deported at once across the border into Mexico to make their way back to Europe or Africa or Juarez as best they could. I would then demand that Cherokee and Navajo be made the official languages of the country. Any white boy who protested against this would be required to learn the Ghost Dance and the Blessing Way and the Navajo Night Way, as well as memorize the complete text of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. That should put the damned illegal immigrants in their place!

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Right. So what are you arguing about?

Hint: Well, you could go back and read through this thread. Just a stray thought from my frenzied liberal brain...

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The only way for this to occur is for American ranchers, etc., to hire them illegally. If they are here legally, they must be paid minimum wage. They could also unionize. The left is guilty of racism on this issue. Not the "hang all [race]" racism, but "you're [race], so you're obviously not equipped to follow the same rules as the rest of us. Because of your race, we'll give you a pass." Patronizing and wrong.

Damn, Noodle, you've got to stop getting all your information from folks like NICOTINE GUN and Zap Comix. Since when is it racist to suggest that perhaps American employers should be required to follow US law? Yeah, poor Americans. They're too stupid to ask a potential employee for a social security number of a green card. After all, they ARE products of the US school system and American talk radio. We can't ask the impossible of them.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

So where would you personally draw the line? We can't let "all" of them in, so which ones should we allow? Which should we turn back? What is the point of cracking down on employers if you're not going to stem the supply of cheap, illegal labor? Maybe Nancy Reagan could come and tell them to Just Say No?

Excellent idea!

American Employer: "Gotta green card?"
Illegal Immigrant/Wetback: **shrugs shoulders and presents would-be employer with an old ticket to a soccer game held last year in Chihuahua**
American Employer: NO job for YOU!

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Intimately. At any rate, I was agreeing with you. You shouldn't argue when people are agreeing with you. I was saying that there are 32 decent hardworking Mexicans per useless militia-member white nut.

Great! Then you know all about Forbes Trinchera, land grants made by the Spanish Crown and the stand off that occurred just over the Colorado border near Chama, New Mexico some years back. What were you agreeing with me about, by the way?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But I fell into the race trap, at any rate. My bad -- this isn't about race, as much as the left wishes it were.

Tisk, tisk. That'll learn you. We on the left adore the race trap. Walk in beauty, white boy! (If you can still walk after getting out of the briar patch you just threw yourself into)

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Ooh. I have to call my Hispanic lawyer and make sure he got the whole $1700 for my DUI case. It almost broke me to pay him, but I'm sure his bambinos will appreciate the extra tortillas, particularly since he's in the Bahamas this week and can't support the family.

What? You hired some cut rate spic lawyer from the Bahamas who doesn't even have a green card? You must have been drunk!

[Brett's Honey]

The social programs have gotten out of hand.
Lately it seems the majority of my paycheck goes to feeding my family. Not just food, of course there's all of the non-edible things I have to buy weekly also. I recently gave a neighbor a ride to the grocery store so she could get $560.00 worth of food, soap, and paper products for herself and her seven kids - at no cost to her! She has a handy little plastic "Oklahoma Access card". The gov't did away with commodities and food stamps so people wouldn't feel bad being seen using them and gave them credit card looking things that also have cash available on them every month. This girl has never worked a day in her life, moves a man in ever so often, reports "father unknown" on her babies, and sits back and collects. The state even bought her a van a while back so she could go to a Vo-Tech school, which of course she never did. She eventually sold it. Will this crap ever end?
I've seen very young girls on talk shows screaming at the audience that they "have the right to stay home and raise their babies". I don't know if they even have a clue who is paying them to do this, but I don't think they really care.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Brett's Honey

-- cut--

She has a handy little plastic "Oklahoma Access card". The gov't did away with commodities and food stamps so people wouldn't feel bad being seen using them and gave them credit card looking things ...---cut--

I think the reason you list here is not correct. It is much more likely that the government decision makers determined that it is a more efficient use of tax dollars to make these transactions electronic ones. The savings of not having to pay for printing and distribution of the stamps, including the redemption side of the equation probably were greater than the cost to run the program electronically.

Your frustration and anger may have other valid foundations. " ...so people wouldn't feel bad being seen using them... " just isn't one of them.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by BigV

The savings of not having to pay for printing and distribution of the stamps, including the redemption side of the equation probably were greater than the cost to run the program electronically.

It could also diminish fraud by preventing the sale of food stamps. If you sell your card, you can't use it (or sell it again) next month. But if you've got a food stamp scam going on (ie you receive but don't need them), you can sell them each month as you receive them.

[mrnoodle]

It's no fair. You guys on the left get movie stars on your side, we get forum posters WITH ALL CAPS NAMES who quote Hitler in their sig file and claim descendancy from Caligula.