Rice urges calm, calls Koran desecration abhorrent

[mrnoodle]

Any large gathering of people is prone to become a mob, sadly. Individual thought tends to go out the window when you're with 10,000 of your closest friends and bitterest enemies. Look at soccer matches, rock concerts, evangelical tent revivals, Mardi Gras, Nazi rallies in the '30s, etc. etc. If you could somehow pull any individual out of one of those gatherings and put them in a room alone (while they continue acting the same way), you'd usually have a case for wolf's floor at the hospital.

Nah, the reason I think some people are savages is because they wake up throwing rocks and firing guns in the air, they throw rocks and fire guns in the air all day, and before they go to bed, they throw rocks, burn effigies, fire guns in the air and tape bombs to their women before their shopping trips. Probably load em up with rocks to throw too.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by jaguar

I remember the big anti WTO riots in melbourne in 2000, the area around the building it was being held in and half the CBD was full of protesters, the vast majority of whom were peaceful. The serious action was throwing eggs at cars and sit-down roadblocks. Then there was the fringe who threw bricks at police, broke windows and generally used it as an excuse to get away with doing criminal damage. I don't think that all of us involved should be judged by their actions, same applies here.

Well, at Kent State the people who got shot probably weren't the ones who threw the rocks.

By being in or near a protest, you basically run the risk of injury, sometimes at the hands of law enforcement personnel. The odds of them being held accountable are not good. Some of those rules we learned in grade school - sometimes the entire class suffers for the actions of a few people, sometimes the person being attacked is the one who is caught and punished, still apply once we become adults.

The shootings killed four students and wounded nine. Only one of the four students killed was participating in the protest, and one of the students killed, William Schroeder (who was observing but not participating in the demonstration) was a member of the campus ROTC chapter. Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet (22 m) from the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest was 265 feet (81 m) from the guardsmen.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Then there was the fringe who threw bricks at police, broke windows and generally used it as an excuse to get away with doing criminal damage. I don't think that all of us involved should be judged by their actions, same applies here.

You (generic you) are also judged by who you associate with as well. Self-policing can go a long way towards changing people's opinions. If you don't want people to think you're nothing but a bunch rock throwing thugs then when one of you picks up a rock, you stop him.

This policy works on many, many levels and would go a long way towards reducing the opportunities that law enforcement have to intervene. Reduce those opportunities and the LE won't have a legitimate excuse to step in and crack skulls.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sycamore

From what I've read, the Qu'ran is more sacred to Muslims than the Bible is to many Christians. It's considered the untainted written word of God.

And you don't think the fundies feel the same way about the bible?

Remember we're talking about the extremists. It's always the extremists because they're the ones in the news. We can't talk about the others because we don't know what they feel or even what they do. It's not on the news.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

And you don't think the fundies feel the same way about the bible?

Nah...that seems rather different to me. Muslims as a whole seem to care way more about their religion than Christians do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You've never had the pleasure of meeting a REAL Christian.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You've never had the pleasure of meeting a REAL Christian.

Have you ever had the pleasure of living in the South? I have.

[Skunks]

You could argue that the Qur'an is slightly more analogous to Jesus than to the Bible, actually: according to itself, the Qur'an is the revealed word of god (there's actually a whole theological debate that I can't recall the main points of as to if the Qur'an is the Word of God or God or which came first or something, but let's ignore that) in its unmodified, original form.

Ignoring the Christological debate, too, let's just say that Jesus is significantly more than 'just another prophet' in the eyes of Christianity. Taught both through actions and sayings, both of which were recorded in the bible. He didn't write it, some other guy down the line did. So the Christian progression goes God -> Jesus -> main guys -> Bible -> everyone; the Muslim version goes God -> Qur'an -> Muhammad -> everyone.

Muhammad lived his life in accordance with the Qur'an and was/is said to be the best example of how to be a Muslim, which would be roughly analogous to the apostles or saints or some other individual. The Bible would be closer to the Sunnah of the Prophet (recorded sayings/actions of Muhammad) than the Qur'an, in this interpretation.

You could also just say that Islam doesn't have as many holy objects/symbols/people, so the religious fervor is more concentrated.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Whether this is true or not, we're fucked either way.

The word is credibility. Did they throw Korans down the toilet? Well don't think of them as books. Think of pocket books that when open can easily fit in your palm. In Arabic media, an equivalent to the O'Reilly Factor interviewed two former prisoners from Guantanamo. Both said they saw Korans thrown down the toilet. Furthermore, I was hearing these accusation being made at least one one year ago in international broadcasts. Somehow, the accusation was only recently picked up by, for example, a famous sportsman now turned commentator in Pakistan. It was not just Newsweek that had been making these accusations.

Look. Those men were held for years in Guantanamo and then released - not even accued of any crimes. The same people who held those two men illegally (the US Government) will be considered honest when saying the Koran was not thrown down the toilet? They lied about the prisoners being al Qaeda. These men also said they were tortured. This is reported to be ordered from the White House that simply decided to change the definition of torture.

Credibility was only one of many things lost when torture was authorized in the highest levels of the American government. Where are all those who, in the Cellar, said that torture is a legitamite tool for interrogation. Why are they suddenly so silent? Why are they not out here avidly defending the credibility of a White House that authorized torture, denied it, and now tries to claim the Koran was not abused. Or has the definition of 'toilet' also changed?

Credibility is even that low among one of Americans stronger supporters.
This comic published in Indian newspapers shows a worried Uncle Sam throwing copies of Newsweek down the toilet. Its all about credibility. The US does not even have one fluent Arabic speaker on the White House staff. But somehow they just know that the Arabic nations will trust them? American credibility therefore is even difficult in India.

[tw]

These are exactly the lessons of Vietnam. When top management routinely lies (ie the US President), then lying is routine all down into the ranks.

from the NY Times of 22 May 2005
Army Faltered in Investigating Detainee Abuse
Despite autopsy findings of homicide and statements by soldiers that two prisoners died after being struck by guards at an American military detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, Army investigators initially recommended closing the case without bringing any criminal charges, documents and interviews show.

But these are the good guys. Therefore we have the right to not investigate murders.

As Gen Janise Karpenski of Abu Ghraid fame noted, her troops did not come to Iraq carrying dog collars and leashes. Those things appeared when Gen Miller arrived from Guantanamo to Gitmoize Abu Ghraid. But we don't want to embarrass the US. So we blame the little people. Clearly those Afghan prisoners must have been guilty of something. Otherwise god would not have let them die.

Sarcastic? We also had to burn the village to save it. But then that was thirty years ago. We don't need no lessons from history. We have a bible to use as toilet paper. Remember, even the definition of toilet has now changed. Maybe those prisoners did not die? Maybe they were just recycled. Good Morning Richard Nixon, Vietnam, and six dead in Ohio - when a president lies.

Too many in The Cellar, I fear, were not at least 16 when Richard Nixon was doing the same things. This is Vietnam all over again - complete with some Americans who refuse to admit such *evil* has happened only because Americans would not do such things. Nonsense. That is the lesson of history. The president even authorized torture. Even those who committed My Lai could not be prosecuted because, well, the president back then was a crook. Lets face it. There is no difference between a gook and a dirty Arab. Clearly it is not right to soil the reputation of some Americans over a few dead (and probably innocent) Arabs.

FISHing. Fighting In Someone's House. Throw in the grenade. Then go in to find out if it is an insurgent or a family that was killed. Full Metal Jacket or Platoon - movies based upon reality. Doesn't matter. When everyone over there is the enemy, then these are legitimate tactics. They are only gooks in Arab robes. Don't fool yourself. That is our nation's attitude when we go to war without waiting for the smoking gun.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What I hear from the rank and file Bush supporters and many that aren't is, "Good, the bastards deserve it." and "Cut off their balls if it will save one of our boys."
I don't know if Bush convinced them or they convinced Bush that it's the right thing to do. Maybe they're on the same wavelength.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Have you ever had the pleasure of living in the South? I have.

And you obviously didn't learn a damn thing about it except where to eat. :p
Did you ever go to the gospel sing alongs at Mc Donalds?
You don't have to leave PA to find people that consult their savior in every decision, every day.

[wolf]

Yeah, boy, haven't I gotten you to watch Reverend Pastor and General Overseer Geno??

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Did you ever go to the gospel sing alongs at Mc Donalds?
You don't have to leave PA to find people that consult their savior in every decision, every day.

I know that, but I've found them to be far more prevalent in the South and Midwest.

There was no need to go to the gospel singalongs, given the people I lived around during my first year in college.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You should talk to some of the old ladies at the Italian Market in south Philly. The ones that dress in black and have the mole with 2 hairs growing out of it.
Then between Philly and Pittsburgh except Harrisburgh, state college and Griftopia, we have Alabama.