What is a relationship?

[Catwoman]

*sigh*

Ok - I'm trying to break down people's perceptions of relationships. I don't label my relationship with this person not because of some outdated 60s hippy shit, but because there are no rules. I don't call it a relationship but:

- we live together
- we sleep together
- we cuddle a lot
- we have sex
- we do everything together
- we know each other's parents
- I'm his plus one
- most people think we are boyfriend and girlfriend
- we love being with each other

I could go on. To most people, this is a relationship. Just if you call it that (and ok I don't just mean a word, I mean accepting it into your consciousness as a relationship) you lose your freedom. I don't care who you are or how long you've been married, you WILL at some point fancy someone else. The only difference is I have the freedom to pursue it, if I wish. It's like all the good points of a relationship without the holding-back or tieing-down.

I met a man the other night who had been married 20 years or so, and he wanted to travel, to explore, but 'she'd kill me if she found out' and 'she'd never let me'. He was living his life for his wife. And this happens all the time, often to lesser extent on the surface, but not really. You think you own someone. The fat bird/affairs thing was just an example. Just the same as I wouldn't stop him going to China. Just like he wouldn't stop me doing anything I want. I have the warmth, comfort, 'love' if you want to call it that and all the rest without compromising my self in any way.

I still don;t think I've explained this well. I hope someone picks it up.

[jinx]

Ok, so what you're saying is your "relationship" is superior to others because you are prepared to walk away at any point? Someone walks away 50% of the time or so, its good to be prepared for it, but to define your whole relationship around the possibility.... I don't know. I don't see the point.
I'm not one who belives that marriage means you can never again fuck anyone else (I'm not christian), but add a couple of kids and a mortgage and see how thrilled you are when your bloke wants to skip off to China for a few years.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I don't label my relationship with this person not because of some outdated 60s hippy shit, but because there are no rules.

Just wait till your pregnant. You'll have rules squirting out of every orifice.

And, despite your attempt to define a higher state of being than the anthropoligical rut you feel the rest of the world is stuck in, the state you are defining is nearly impossible to distinguish from the "free love" hippie shit you are so determined to distance yourself from.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I don't call it a relationship but: <stuff they do snipped>
To most people, this is a relationship. Just if you call it that (and ok I don't just mean a word, I mean accepting it into your consciousness as a relationship) you lose your freedom.

I see what you're saying. But I don't buy the notion that you have somehow developed the ability to sleep with someone, live with them, meet the 'rents, cuddle, do everything together, etc. etc., and not have an emotional investment. It sounds like you maybe feel *too* strongly and have developed this disconnect to keep from having your heart stomped on.

"I enjoy all the different components of a relationship, but it's not a relationship until I accept it as such," begs to be called bullshit upon. But hey, if you can do it and it actually makes you happy, good on you. Does your not-so-significant other care if guys hump your leg in a bar?

[Catwoman]

I don't want a couple of kids and a mortgage! I don't define anything! I don't think my relationship is superior! That should answer your post!

[jinx]

I have the warmth, comfort, 'love' if you want to call it that and all the rest without compromising my self in any way.

I thought that's what you were saying here.

Do you actually have a point? Not to be snarky but I apparently need it spelled right out for me if you do.

[Catwoman]

Trying to overcome perceptions of relationships. Trying to illustrate, using myself as an example, that the idea of an exclusive relationship is odd, and doesn't work. Huge generalisation that I can back up only by examining each individual case (ie the ones that look like perfect relationships but aren't).

But I am getting frustrated at my own inability to explain myself.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

But I am getting frustrated at my own inability to explain myself.

That's what happens when you try to convey vague concepts. Try to give them form(words) and you find they're just smoke.
Keep telling yourself it's not really a "relationship" so that if it ends it won't hurt.
You're wrong...it will.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

It's an odd concept, really. We don't really question it in daily life, you know, he's going out with her, that's his friend, they're in love.

As we are all separate people, individuals, what is behind the notion of having a 'relationship' or connection to someone. I'm not just talking about romantic relationships - friends, family, acquaintances... whatever definition you choose to give to what is essentially regular contact with one person.

There does appear to be an inclination to attach a label to different kinds of relationships, and unfortunately with these labels come a set of rules, for example, 'you wouldn't do that if you were my friend', or 'you should spend more time with me because you're my wife'. Just examples.

Why can't we let people come and go without forming some kind of relationship?

I've never been very good at relationships. However, my boss, a Boston Terrier named "Boss"", looked at me today as I was trying to teach him a new trick, cocked his head as to say you have got to be kidding..... Guess I named him appropriately.

[Catwoman]

Hang on when did I say I wasn't emotionally attached or that I wouldn't be distraught if it ended? Of course there are feelings 'invested' and I would rather be with him than anyone else. But if it did end - what am I going to do about it? Ok I'll cry for a bit and then get on with the next moment. If the next moment is filled with sadness so be it, at least I'll be being real.

The fat bird was an example. What do you mean 'why did he allow her to flirt with him?' How would he stop her?! He didn't reciprocate, but he might have done if she was attractive, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Ok, I must say I wasn't so keen on this idea at first, and it did come from him, not me. But for every feeling off 'ooh it would hurt if he went off with someone else' was a huge feeling of relief 'I'm free do do whatever I want.' I'm not sure that I want a committed relationship - and I'm not being forced into one (for a change).

Don't forget I'm still early-20s and he's a bit older than me. I think he's aware I need to, lets say, live a bit more on my own before I think about settling down. Also, he has cheated on every single girlfriend he's had and I have cheated on every boyfriend. So I suppose we're just being honest about the possibility.

The relationship is not based on some idelogical freedom. It's based on good conversations and a unique connection. There are emotions there too, but they don't dictate it. I find when one is too emotional it clouds your vision, and the most important thing to me is my clarity.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Does your not-so-significant other care if guys hump your leg in a bar?

He has the same initial reaction I would have - slight discomfort, a bit unsure, an emotional reaction. But he realises this is bullshit. Now, what I mean by that is sometimes we have feelings about someone we think are real but aren't. The jealousy you feel when a partner is with someone else is a proponent of the false 'love'. It is possible to think yourself into loving someone, 'oh, I grew to love him'. Well that is something I want to avoid. I only want a true relationship, and how can you be sure it's true unless you have utmost clarity? This is why I am trying to remove all rules, associations, irrelevant emotions and petty jealousy so I can see if there is an underlying true feeling there. I'm not sure at the moment, but hopefully it will become clear.

[jaguar]

Ii get it because I'm trying something similar. It is very hard to articulate, you haven't been doing a bad job. Last paragraph kind of got the gist of it.

Hang on when did I say I wasn't emotionally attached or that I wouldn't be distraught if it ended? Of course there are feelings 'invested' and I would rather be with him than anyone else. But if it did end - what am I going to do about it? Ok I'll cry for a bit and then get on with the next moment. If the next moment is filled with sadness so be it, at least I'll be being real.

I think this is kind of the key, i'll speak for myself only but I think cat would agree on this one: I'm with the person I'm with because we enjoy each other and doing things together however the minute that ends, for whatever reason, we'll part ways and we both understand that fully. Two people doing something simply because they want to, no construct on top to fence it in.

[Catwoman]

Wow. You've said in four lines what I've taken two days to muddle up. Impressive.

[jaguar]

Took a few tries, I've been trying to nail that one for nearly a month.

[lumberjim]

early twenties. waxing philosophical about relationships, expectations, rules, and the lot. I'm sittin here on the group 'W" bench at the ripe old age of 34. old enough to see through these words to the real message, and young enough to remember when these thoughts went through my own internal process of evolution. Your relationship ( and it IS a relationship) is just like anyone else's. just as you are exactly as unique as everyone else. every relationship has its own set of rules (and you DO have rules). What you are describing is a committed relationship with a partner with the cavat that you willl tolerate casual sex or flirting on the side as long as the core of your relationship remains intact.

see also elf's gig.

The conscious effort to NOT have expectations of your mate is a defense against being dissapointed when they are inevitably unmet or resisted. It works in the beginning, but I think you'll find that as time goes by, and you have more and more time invested with your bloke, his flirting will bother you more and more. If the relationship survives this, you'll move into a place where you actually ARE secure enough, and trust him enough to where the flirting will spice up your own sex life instead of undermining your trust in each other. What if you had not been in that bar where the cow was twirling his hair? do you think he'd have shagged her or come home and knocked the bottom out of YOU?

It's good to define your relationship, not bad. BUT> be honest with each other at all times about the rules and how they make you feel. if you're truly OK with him boinking someone else just because there's nothing you can do to prevent it......well, then fine. Personally I think that just the way you worded that lends to the fact that you DO have a problem with it and have simply resigned yourself to it. Had you said that it doesn;t bother you because sex is just sex, and you know he'll be careful not to catch anything, and it kind of turns you on to see him flirt ...or whatever.....i might buy it. but you didn't.

[elf]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... Your relationship ( and it IS a relationship) is just like anyone else's. just as you are exactly as unique as everyone else. every relationship has its own set of rules (and you DO have rules). What you are describing is a committed relationship with a partner with the cavat that you willl tolerate casual sex or flirting on the side as long as the core of your relationship remains intact.

Here here.

see also elf's gig.

Originally Posted by lumberjim

.... Personally I think that just the way you worded that lends to the fact that you DO have a problem with it and have simply resigned yourself to it. Had you said that it doesn;t bother you because sex is just sex, and you know he'll be careful not to catch anything, and it kind of turns you on to see him flirt ...or whatever.....i might buy it. but you didn't.

I think you're missing the balance of it. If Cat can get through the jealousy issues no worse for wear, then it works the other way around too. So she's free, too, and has every right to expect him to give her that much.

As far as I can see, the relationship Cat's talking about offers a comfortable place to be. For the here and now, it works. But I agree. It is a relationship, and there are rules no matter how vague they may be. There's something that you or he could do (breaking a trust would be the most obvious) that would end the relationship, and that makes it rules. Makes sense?