Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.

My limited understanding is that those who tend to romanticize the "poor" (however you define it) often have never dealt with them in any meaningful way. I don't know anything about you, save a few remarks you've made, but my myopic eyes were opened a tad after I started actually WORKING with the poor, sick and downtrodden. I've been in a few situations I wanted right out of...I'm not proud of that, but I found I could not be effective in those particular instances. Have you ever been to a home where there were dog feces and cockroaches all over the floor, countertop, bedspread, and cooking area? To my middle-class eyes those things were intolerable...to those who lived there it was normal. How to help? I wanted them to clean up and they thought I was a "college-educated" butt-insky sent by the State. What would you have done? (I realize I am off topic, sorry, but really, what would you do??? I had to scour myself every night to be sure I hadn't brought cockroach's into my home)---I apologize, in advance, for my middle-class bullshit.

You are correct when you ask what this has to do with anything--I am muddling my meaning which is this: you kind of come off as a snob, Jag, whether you are one or not. The first credo in working with the poor, sick and downtrodden is to be as one of them. That has been my experience and I've been doing it for 20 years. They've not much patience for "idea's"--that's all I mean.

[jaguar]

What's your point though? People live in squalour, seen plenty of the same in the 3rd world, not in the first but how does that relate to the growing gap between rich and poor? I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.

Amen!

it's a very tough gig. I don't know, Jag, but with your smarts and your travel and your opportunity...I just wish you could see what I have seen. How do you want to help? Or, maybe you already are? I don't know. i just find it easier, in myself, to talk rather than do. That may not be your way, but, sadly, it is the way of a lot of us. (talk instead of DO)

[glatt]

Brianna, if one doesn't have the motivation to wipe the dog feces off the floors, beds and counters, that's not because they are poor. There's something else at work there. You don't need money to clean up piles of shit in your house.

[jaguar]

It's a trend, a massive economic change with as far reaching effects as many that have come before it, I can only ride waves as I see them, not make my own, at least for now . Bruce is right when he says I'm more worried about trends and movements than people, for now, I can't really do much but if I can get clued up enough about the mechanics behind the curtain, maybe one day.

[Trilby]

Too true, Glatt. What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that? how to say, "well, your mother and father were pigs and not the norm and thank God we are here to help!" without causing a war? you've no IDEA how many people live like this!

[Clodfobble]

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.

Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does. Perhaps he's grateful that he was given the opportunity to have a job at all instead of being born into a caste system where he was destined to live on the street no matter how hard he worked. When I worked food service, I was the only teenager in the place. Everyone else there were twenty-something and middle-aged guys supporting their families. Some were going to school, some were taking that franchise's management training courses, and some were happy where they were. One guy was officially retired, and worked there for the comeraderie and something to keep him busy. I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.

And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.

That's right. They have to work hard for those things--they have to be willing to work for years to get their experience, they have to practice being polite if they have a temper, they have to do their best to learn from their managers. Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.

People who don't believe in the American Dream are always native-born Americans, never immigrants. What a surprise.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does.....I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.

Geez, relax. I am not putting anyone down. I worked fast food and various retail jobs all through highschool and college. I don't know what kind of Disneyland of a fast food place you were working at, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that "all" of your co-workers were "happy." I worked with people of all different ages, and almost none of them were satisfied working fast food jobs. The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.

What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world? How about someone who speaks no English? They might be sincere and hard-working, but I can pretty much guaratee you they're not going to be successful, at least not in the FINANCIAL sense of the word.

[ladysycamore]

Originally Posted by echo

Who can tell me something about the American Dream.?its origin,its symbol, etc.Where can I find some information or knowledge about it? Thanks in advance.

It's become a nightmare.

[Trilby]

Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by Brianna

Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.

Er.... that's CO poisoning, CO2 wouldn't hurt a fly. We breathe it out as a by product of the respitory process after every breath we take in. Minor point, but if you are somehow affiliated with the medical end of things, you should be aware of this. I know several RN's and the training they undergo requires a MINIMUM of 4 years. They are required to pass classes in chemistry, biology, and mathematics which require a brain to go along with the heart beat. Not a single one of them started out making $50,000 a year either. What are the sources for your statements?

[Trilby]

you can become an Rn with a 2 year associates degree, or, pass a test that the state requires if you are from another country. Sorry about the typo on the CO/Co2 thing--see, you are smarter than I am already! and you're brain damaged! what do you know!~! YOU CAN be a nurse!!


Really, HONEY, you don't have to have a bachelor's to be an Rn. Your friends are fooling you!

Um-you drive, don't you, Mari? Doesn't that take some critical thinking?

My sources for salary: myself. Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K. You didn't mention the working weekends and nights, though, did you? Yes, I worked weekends and nights. Probably not to your liking, doing that. Some people make sacrifices. How long have you paid into SSDI?

[jaguar]

I kind of agree with lookout, different people are happy with different things but I do think he/you are being a tad idealistic.

Call me crazy but I don't think people should have to risk getting shrapnel to the face to get a college degree, the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.

[elSicomoro]

I think the American Dream these days requires a lot of hard work, making carefully-considered choices and catching a break.

*thinks* Yeah...I'll leave it at that.

[Clodfobble]

But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??