Today Russia, tomorrow the UK?

[jaguar]

Boy that looks like an unbiased source. Couldn't you find something that wasn't a christian rant site? I mean really.

FGM isn't clear, I'll refer to probably the best reference, Anmesty.

FGM predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension. Where it is practised by Muslims, religion is frequently cited as a reason. Many of those who oppose mutilation deny that there is any link between the practise and religion, but Islamic leaders are not unanimous on the subject. The Qur'an does not contain any call for FGM, but a few hadith (sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) refer to it. In one case, in answer to a question put to him by 'Um 'Attiyah (a practitioner of FGM), the Prophet is quoted as saying "reduce but do not destroy". Mutilation has persisted among some converts to Christianity. Christian missionaries have tried to discourage the practice, but found it to be too deep rooted. In some cases, in order to keep converts, they have ignored and even condoned the practice.

FGM was practised by the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, a derogatory term, most of whom now live in Israel, but it is not known if the practise has persisted following their emigration to Israel. The remainder of the FGM-practising community follow traditional Animist religions.

FGM is much more cultural than religious and it's link to Islam is as questionable as it's links to Christianity.

Stoning can happen to anyone in Iran, what's your point. It's Iran, it's fairly backward hardline religious state. I wish we had a hardline religious christian state that literally interpreted the old testament for comparison, that'd be sight. I'm not sure how that really came up anyway, I was talking about Sharia banks in the UK, not Iran. BUt here's some interesting stats about women and education in Iran here

Good potted reference to sharia banking here.
It's the emphasis on ethical investing that interests me.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Female genital mutilation is only really prevalent in Africa and is practically unknown in the Middle east.

wrong on this account jaguar. the bedouin tribes throughout the middle east, do in fact perform female circumcision. granted, i've only been to saudi, oman, bahrain, and yemen, so maybe the rest of the middle east doesn't.

[jaguar]

True, the bedouin do, I'm wrong on that count and dug myself a fun little hole. However, UT's assertion that's it's a commonplace part of islam and an islamic tradition is still seriously incorrect.

[lookout123]

well, at some points this thread ahs moved into a christian vs. muslim thing. that is just a generic way of framing the situation. The terrorists may have different individual catalysts that send them to the local recruiting office, but what is pretty standard is that the organizations are anti-western. (if they want to call it anti-christian, then fine.) it isn't as simple as "they hate are freedom, let's kill 'em" but it isn't that complicated either. they do hate the western influence on their culture. they hate that their societies have been subjected to our products, advertising, factories, stores, immodest dress, equal rights for women, unbelievers, etc. these influences have changed their way of living. while many in their societies enjoy this, many others do not. they feel they have been robbed and their culture raped. who is to blame? the infidel west of course.

the majority of muslims operate the same way as christians and other faith groups do - let's convert them if we can but always acknowledge that we can co-exist. the two groups are in conflict with each other. unfortunately, the more visible activists are the ones who feel killing will accomplish A) converting us, or B) killing us, or C) making us uncomfortable enough so that we leave them alone and they can repair their society and bring it back to the place they want it. these are the people we fight.

Jag and Dana you seem to think that i don't see any justification or reason for their actions. i do not see them as irrational animals. i realize that they see their actions as reasonable and helpful to their cause. they (some) are highly intelligent, dedicated individuals. i also see them as the enemy. They want us dead or gone. We don't want to be dead or gone. it is a battle over who gets to achieve their desires. the centuries (or decade old in some cases) causes for the conflict don't matter. the battle and the outcome do. and in my view our side winning at the least cost in lives and expense on OUR side is the end goal. this is an us or them situation and i am more concerned with us. to be fair, i understand that you believe removing the catalyst, (poverty, lack of education, etc.) will end the conflict. unfortunately, an end to conflict is impossible. conflict is human nature.

it is important to remember that in my view man in imperfectable and there can be no such thing as world peace. someone will always be fighting and dieing in the name of some cause. my view is that we work to prevent the death from being inside our camp.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

True, the bedouin do, I'm wrong on that count and dug myself a fun little hole. However, UT's assertion that's it's a commonplace part of islam and an islamic tradition is still seriously incorrect.

that wasn't meant as an "in your face nanana" comment. i just wanted to point out that it is very common. but i don't believe that it is common within main stream islam. unfortunately, our conflict isn't with main stream Islam.

[Skunks]

Female genital mutilation was beaten into the ground a while back (some topic on Sidhe's forum which is now archived and I can't seem to find?), and generally strikes me as a dead-end topic of debate; there are very few unbiased sources in either direction w.r.t Islam. It is, in some ways, tantamount to convincing a large number of homosexual black jews that the KKK isn't representative of all of Christianity, and that they should maybe give it a chance.

By that I mean that the official scripture looks bad, and the public image of the religion sucks ass because the people who do it well are prototypically simple, happy, quiet, and not often the topic of columns or websites. Correcting this would require firstly an audience of willing people (some of y'all, nevermind Americans in general, seem a little on the "fuckit, let's just nuke the ragheads" side of things), and secondly someone better versed in the subject than either jag or I.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Pi

In the end, whatever the solution is, it will never be. I believe that the human race can't live without anger, hate, war and so one. It always was like that and it will ever be like that.

absotively, posilutely, 100% accurate.

[DanaC]

Jag and Dana you seem to think that i don't see any justification or reason for their actions. i do not see them as irrational animals. i realize that they see their actions as reasonable and helpful to their cause. they (some) are highly intelligent, dedicated individuals. i also see them as the enemy. They want us dead or gone. We don't want to be dead or gone. it is a battle over who gets to achieve their desires. the centuries (or decade old in some cases) causes for the conflict don't matter. the battle and the outcome do. and in my view our side winning at the least cost in lives and expense on OUR side is the end goal. this is an us or them situation and i am more concerned with us. to be fair, i understand that you believe removing the catalyst, (poverty, lack of education, etc.) will end the conflict. unfortunately, an end to conflict is impossible. conflict is human nature.

it is important to remember that in my view man in imperfectable and there can be no such thing as world peace. someone will always be fighting and dieing in the name of some cause. my view is that we work to prevent the death from being inside our camp.

I can respect that.

[TheSnake]

Originally Posted by lookout123

absotively, posilutely, 100% accurate.

It will always be around on the micro level, but we can still aim towards peace on a macro scale.

Unfortunately, the leaders of our country chose to perpetuate violence and war (the invasion of Iraq) anyway.

[lookout123]

aim towards it we should, but always with the full knowledge that any peace we find will only be short term. man is always at war with himself and those around him. it is the nature of man.

Just scanned thru this thread, and I have to say that I disagree with what seems to be the prevailing take - that this is a conflict which is caused at least in part by differences in faith. IMO, religion is the cloak which both sides use to justify what can only be ungodly actions to members of ANY faith. The Arab world has been upset with the western one since at least WWI (I won't even go into the business of the crusades which were not really about faith either). The Arabs who fought with T.E. Lawrence and rebelled against the Turks did so because of the British promise of the return of certain territories to Arab rule. This promise was broken before it was ever made. The creation of Israel did little to assauge the Arabs' feeling of betrayal by the West. Petroleum has literally become the fuel for that flame.

The entity which controls the petroleum supply by default will control the lion's share of the world's power and wealth. The financial backers of the various Muslim fundamentalist terrorist groups are interested in neither fundamentalism or the Muslim faith. Neither are the handlers of George Jr. interested in bringing democracy to the Arab world or Christ's message of salvation to the heathen.

What is happening here is a very high stake battle for worldly treasure conducted by men on both sides who pimp out the names of Jesus and Mohammed to further their own ends. The rest of us sing "Onward Christian Soldiers" or scream "Jihad!" leaving behind our orphans to put flowers on our graves and tell themselves that our deaths were not in vain, so the hatred can continue on unbaited by either side.

[DanaC]

beautifully put Marichiko

Thank you.

[Griff]

You nailed it Mari. That manipulation is pretty common even going beyond religion. Whenever a blue blood President gets folksy you can expect the dying to start.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Don't know if that's true Mari, but it's as easy to build a case for your position as any others and easier than most.