Fascists

[xoxoxoBruce]

Man, that was a tough read, Jag. I'm more concerned with the impact on social services and crime, than the labor market. Especially youth (gang) crime.

[lookout123]

here is the thing Dana. it isn't easy for you to get here on a permanent basis either. i've got 2 canadian friends that ahve been trying to get green cards for 4 years. they would be just as wrong to illegally enter and stay as a mexican would.

But the system which makes it so difficult for Mexicans to get in legaly and yet so easy for say....me.....has a racist agenda imo.

it is not racist to say that someone who has a needed work skill gains access before someone with skills that are in less demand. those are the facts of life. the US is not just a big charity, if a person is not adding something substantive to the society, why should we import them. we have enough unemployed and even more underemployed americans.

but this discussion was not about legal imm. it is about those that choose to break the law and cross the border with no right to do so. Bruce said he isn't as concerned about the labor market as he is the social services and criminal aspects. they are all one in the same. they are here illegally so they don't have the ability to demand higher wages or benefits. when push comes to shove, they break other laws (theft, drugs, etc...) or they tap into the welfare system.

[DanaC]

"it is not racist to say that someone who has a needed work skill gains access before someone with skills that are in less demand. those are the facts of life"

It may not seem racist, it may indeed not be racist ....However it is very much slewed in favour of economies which are able to provide enough opportunities for their citizens as to make them easily employable.....Since the countries which are most likely to provide immigrants with suitable working skills are generally the affluent nations, most of which are predominatly white .....Consequently there is a racist effect if not a racist intent to that system.

[lookout123]

Dana. as of midnight tonight you are the sole ruler of Danatown, Inc. it is your town to do with as you wish, but there will be no outside source of support. you start with 50 people in your town and you can let 5 new people in every month. on the first month as the applicants for entry show up you review their resume (you don't meet them face to face, because race should play no part of your decision.)

on your list you see:

11 computer programmers
2 architects
3 lawyers
2 doctors
1 banker
7 teachers
3 athletes
14 landscapers
3 roadworkers
16 construction workers
1 interior designer
4 farmers
6 auto mechanics
3 scientists
1 lumberjim
x
x
x
x
x

you are allowed to pick 5 for the month. next month you will be handed another list. who will you choose to enter this month?

[Clodfobble]

Didn't Dana just state a few posts ago that it takes forever before they're ALLOWED to seek work?

Dana lives in England. Totally different situation over there.

And you wonder why they take low income jobs at less than minimum wage. It's the only way they can eat, man.

Here's the problem--they don't pay any taxes on that low-income job. So their "take home" pay is comparable to a citizen making higher wages. There are plenty of LEGAL immigrants who pay taxes and work to become US citizens and don't attempt to get free healthcare, foodstamps, and welfare. The ones who are a drain are the ones who willfully avoid detection, can make $8 an hour (the going rate at the day laborer site here in my city)--UNTAXED, which comes out to more like the take-home of a $10/hour job--then take their wife to the hospital to have their baby for free, who then attends public school for free.

[jaguar]

It is difficult to work out, there is full methadology and all the gory details in the PDF.
Beyond that i'm staying out of this one.

[Happy Monkey]

The one internet company I saw firsthand was about 50% illegal aliens being paid in consumer electronics and housing.

Probably not a representative sample, though.

[Carbonated_Brains]

"instead they choose to take the easy way out"

oh man. entering the USA as an illegal alien and trying to survive is the easy way out.

Dude, tell me you don't actually believe that.

[lookout123]

where do you live CB? is it in a border state? how much interaction do you have with illegals? how much time have you spent in mexico?

i'm in arizona, it is a border state, i have a lot of interaction with illegals, and i have spent a lot of time in mexico...

just curious if you want to keep pulling your ideas out of books and hearsay or do you actually have first hand experience in the area?

because, yes, coming to the states is the easy way out. it is pathetically easy to get over here, get a fake id, get a job, and even living on minimum wage, live a better life than they left. if they stayed it wouldn't be nearly so easy - they would have to fight the forces that be to create a better country to pass onto their kids.

[DanaC]

*Sighs*
It never ceases to amaze me. People who can walk in with little difficulty are welcomed with open arms, but the ones who have risked all that they are and all that they have and fought tooth and nail to get into a country often with the sole intention of being successful are treated like pondlife. How many stories are there in the American psyche of immigrants arriving in the States with a dollar in their pocket and then turning that dollar into a business empire across 30 years?....These are the ones who have fought to get there, who will be most loyal and most grateful and will contribute more thna they ever take if only they are given a welcome instead of being blocked from legal channels and then driven out when they still fought to get in

[DanaC]

Maybe you find it easier to see these people as some sort of infestation because you have reduced them to mere "illegals"

And y'know, people say they dont want illegal immigrants coming from Canad either, but then.......a canadian citizen aiming to gain access to teh states and a work permit is way less likely to be refused than is a mexican

Nor I think would an illegal immigrant from Canada ( as long as he wasnt dark skinned in any way) be treated with the same disdain by the authorities whne they are caught.

It's racism. You just feel safe with it because it's seemingly based purely on legality of status but in reality is based on a gut instinct response to people you see as alien to yourself.

[lookout123]

and again - i hope you get to stay in your fairy tale world. it just isn't that way. i hold no malice to the people. if they can get here legally, then they are welcomed with open arms.

here is one that i bet you won't understand. the mexican immigrants who did get here legally hate the illegals more than i can describe. the ones with the greatest loyalty to the country are the ones who followed the laws and gained there place here lawfully. the others have jumped the system and are breaking the law. end of story. they are breaking the law.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Maybe you find it easier to see these people as some sort of infestation because you have reduced them to mere "illegals"

And y'know, people say they dont want illegal immigrants coming from Canad either, but then.......a canadian citizen aiming to gain access to teh states and a work permit is way less likely to be refused than is a mexican

Nor I think would an illegal immigrant from Canada ( as long as he wasnt dark skinned in any way) be treated with the same disdain by the authorities whne they are caught.

It's racism. You just feel safe with it because it's seemingly based purely on legality of status but in reality is based on a gut instinct response to people you see as alien to yourself.

have you ever met me? don't even begin to tread on this ground without knowing me or my family, there may be a few surprises for you, honey.

how much experience do you have here? as far as i can tell all of your info is based on heresay or out of a book. this is life here. i don't know what the situation is with your asylum seekers, so i don't pretend to pass some sort of judgement. i know this situation here intimately and i will stand on what i have said. so take your race card and shove it, you have no right to play it here.

[DanaC]

No you're right, I know nothing about you and i know little about your country other than the little i have gleaned from living in an American led world and all that that implies.

Your words however bear an enormous resemblance to the words of my own anti immigrant countrymen. Scratch the surface of what seems like anti illegality and I usually find a great ugly blob of racism. If I had changed a few locations in your post and changed 2illegals" to "bogus asylum seekers" it could have come form the mouth of a British racist , so do excuse my error. Maybe if I re read your words with an American accent it will sound less bigotted

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

*Sighs*
It never ceases to amaze me. People who can walk in with little difficulty are welcomed with open arms, but the ones who have risked all that they are and all that they have and fought tooth and nail to get into a country often with the sole intention of being successful are treated like pondlife.

You really don't have a fucking clue, do you? What they risked was getting caught and a ticket back to where they came from in an air conditioned bus. How the hell do you know what their intentions are? You wax poetic about the downtrodden people of Latin America like some Elizabethan school girl tucked away in an English Abby.
It so happens we have a shitload of them just west of here in Chester and Lancaster counties. Some of them a hardworking people that send most of their money back to Latin America to support their extended families. BUT, way too many of them are causing crime wave unpresedented the the history of those areas. They've overwhelmed the small town police departments. And whether good ones or bad ones, in total, put a tremendous strain on the social services of the area. You can guess who's paying for that.

How many stories are there in the American psyche of immigrants arriving in the States with a dollar in their pocket and then turning that dollar into a business empire across 30 years?

Hundreds, no thousands, many of whom I've known personally. They all had one thing in common, they came from varied backgrounds, sometimes fleeing something, sometimes chasing something, but all came legally or at least quasi-legally (misrepresented themselves or past) through the immigration system.

....These are the ones who have fought to get there, who will be most loyal and most grateful and will contribute more thna they ever take if only they are given a welcome instead of being blocked from legal channels and then driven out when they still fought to get in

Bullshit, they come like thieves in the night, to take what the can get away with. I suggest you visit South Central Los Angeles, they'd be glad to do a bowl with you........your bowl.