Pictures of Caskets

[elSicomoro]

No! Are you serious? Stop playing!

[xoxoxoBruce]

I read this account, at EHOWA.com, of a Marine's escorting the body of another Marine from Dover Air Force Base in DE, to the funeral in Dubois, Wyoming. Very interesting but gave me the lump in the throat, too.

We are now at 717 per US Central Command

[wolf]

Is this where it should be pointed out that in World War II the average death toll for the US alone was 202/DAY. (295K/4 yrs/365 days. It's a very rough estimate).

Korea ... 30/day

Vietnam ... 19/day

So, based on these numbers, we're not doing too bad.

Yes, every life is precious. I think the difference is the immediacy of the modern news media ... every dead soldier is being personalized to the whole country this time out.

[tw]

Koppel will be reporting more on this tonight - Friday - on Nightline:

from CNN
Sinclair Broadcast Group has ordered its seven ABC stations not to broadcast Friday's "Nightline" that will air the names and photographs of the more than 500 U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war.

In a statement online, the Sinclair group said the "Nightline" program "appears to be motivated by a political agenda designed to undermine the efforts of the United States in Iraq."

Why are those lives not important when they die in a war created by a Pearl Harbor type attack, a war justified by lies, from a president who fears we might honor these soldiers?

First we have leaders who would deny the dead be remembered in the pictures and videos. Then they fear we would honor their names.

When Koppel was blunt about the ban on flagged draped caskets, he exposed the hypocracy of the same leaders who even lied to invade another sovereign nation - a classic Pearl Harbor type attack.

[elSicomoro]

If the way they run their ABC affiliate in St. Louis is indicative of their company as a whole, then Sinclair sucks to the nth degree. Fuck them...stupid ass 1st amendment haters.

[wolf]

I recently read an article that said Sinclair is trying to out-Fox Fox ... (oh, I mean outconservative. They're starting their own news service, etc.)

[tw]

Sinclair Broadcasting previously tried to get the current HDTV format eliminated because (and they were correct) the format used in NA is different and inferior to HDTV format used virutally everywhere else in the world. Sinclair lost that fight. Major players had already decided on that inferior format to protect American TV manufacturers such as Zenith. Then Zenith sold out anyway.

Seven Sinclair Broadcasting stations including Springfield MA, Asheville & Winston-Salem NC, Columbus OH, Pensacola FL, St Louis, and Charleston WV. All are said to be inundated on phone and by e-mail by good Americans who don't want their news censored - no matter what the broadcasters or FCCs opinion is of that broadcast. Basic facts are basic facts - regardless of what Sinclair thinks they might be used for. Kudos to Nightline for providing basic information that our president fears we would see.

Originally posted by wolf
Is this where it should be pointed out that in World War II the average death toll for the US alone was 202/DAY. (295K/4 yrs/365 days. It's a very rough estimate).

Korea ... 30/day

Vietnam ... 19/day

So, based on these numbers, we're not doing too bad.

Yes, every life is precious. I think the difference is the immediacy of the modern news media ... every dead soldier is being personalized to the whole country this time out.

Actually, in the 3 days since I've been keeping a tally on this thread, 36 men have been killed. That makes a current rate of 13 a day. If this trend continues, we WILL be approaching Vietnam era casualties.

[Undertoad]

US deaths in Vietnam: about 58,000

US deaths in Iraq: 717

# of days it would take to catch up at a rate of 13/day: 4400

# years that would be: 12

Happy numeracy, or something.

Originally posted by Undertoad
US deaths in Vietnam: about 58,000

US deaths in Iraq: 717

# of days it would take to catch up at a rate of 13/day: 4400

# years that would be: 12

Happy numeracy, or something.

US casualties in Vietnam in 1965 - the first year we entered the war - 512. More than that number have already died in the second round of Gulf fighting. Note that I said at the CURRENT RATE, meaning if this rate were to continue. How about a little historical literacy around here?

[tw]

Originally posted by marichiko
US casualties in Vietnam in 1965 - the first year we entered the war - 512. More than that number have already died in the second round of Gulf fighting. Note that I said at the CURRENT RATE, meaning if this rate were to continue. How about a little historical literacy around here?

We have the same exit strategy as 1965 Vietnam - just put in more troops. Also Vietnamize (Iraqize) the conflict. (But the Vietnamese and Iraqi soldiers often ran away during a battle). In both wars, the enemy was really the invading nation. Liberating people who did not want to be liberated - as in both wars.

No one believed in 1965 that we would be in Vietnam ten years later - even though David Halbersham's 1963 book "Making of a Quagmire" demonstrated why we would be there. We have an oppurtunity in a few months (November) to avoid being in Iraq for ten more years. We will never leave if American political leaders openly lie. Exactly same as in VietNam when the liar and crook Richard Nixon (and his corrupt VP Agnew) would even attack sovereign nations without a declaration of war. Its called a Pearl Harbor attack.

Do we vote for a President who lied about Iraq and lied about the impending 11 September attacks? Or do we innovate - get rid of something clearly failed to try something new? Do we dare seek a real exit strategy? Do we dare vote out a leader with a long history of outright lying?

Any light at the end of that tunnel? (for those who don't remember - the daily expression in Vietnam). Some are looking through aluminum tubes and saying they see WMDs. But that is not the tunnel nor the light. Just like in Vietnam - same people with different names - they still see a mythical reason in some mythical tunnel. Therefore we still have no exit strategy - just like 1965 Vietnam.

Doonesbury got started by telling us what we now know to be the truth of Vietnam. This administration would rather we don't know who got killed or even how many lost limbs. In Doonesbury, B.D. lost his leg to an RPG. He calls his wife. "Well the good news is that I am finally down to my ideal weight." As Vietnam progressed, these became the daily humor of most popular comic strips. We relive history.

Don't learn history and be doomed to repeat it. History says repeatedly that wars without the smoking gun turn bad. Here we are again because so many hyped the emotion of "right verses wrong" (or doing god's will) rather than first demand the irrefutible fact - the smoking gun. But then so many reading this never even existed during Nam. They just did not appreciate those warnings. History repeats. And just like in Nam, the large media owners (ie Time Magazine in 1965, CBS News in 1967, and now Fox News / Sinclair Broadcasting in 2004) censor news they fear.

[Griff]

Originally posted by tw
Do we vote for a President who lied about Iraq and lied about the impending 11 September attacks?

I'm with you on Bush lying about Iraq, but I'm not sure I understand the second part. Are you saying he lied to us before 911 or are you talking about the CYA ever since?

[tw]

Originally posted by Griff
I'm with you on Bush lying about Iraq, but I'm not sure I understand the second part. Are you saying he lied to us before 911 or are you talking about the CYA ever since?

He CYAed big time. Details:

from The Economist of 24 April 2004

Mr Bush's warrior strategy has suffered two further blows... The first is the September 11th commission. It is no wonder that the White House fought tooth and nail against the establishment of this commission. It has shone a bright spotlight just where the administation did not want it, on its "failure" to prevent September 11th. It is now clear that the admnistration had plenty of warning that al-Qaeda was planning an earth-shattering attack on American soil, and that both the FBI and CIA failed to act on specific leads. Far from being a warrior president, Mr Bush risks being thought of as asleep on his watch , holidaying in Crawford rather than bullying his cabinet to focus on the mounting terrorist threat.
...
The commission would never have materialised without the lobbying of a group of September 11th widows - particularly a quartet known as the Jersey Girls. These widows are likely to remain a thorn in the warrior president's side for the rest of the political season. They have already made a fuss about the Republican's decisions to use pictures of the flag-draped remains of victims of September 11th in an election ad, and may cause an even bigger fuss if Mr Bush's people try to exploit Ground Zero during their convention. Indeed, Republican are already worrying that Karl Rove's "masterstroke" of holding the Republican convention in NY may yet be remembered as a crass attempt to exploit a national tragedy for partisan gain.

Now for some details. Was it UT who tried to promote the administration's lie that flag draped caskets in his TV ad were not dead soldier's from Iraq? Promote the propaganda daily pumped out to Rush Limbaugh, et al, so that the public will not believe the 'later revealed' truth. President fears the press to show flag draped coffins - but the president will use same pictures in his campaign ads. The point is that this president (and his supporters) know the public will believe lies if they are promoted before the truth. Unfortunately many still believe his lies about 11 September - as the truth slowly leaks out to expose administration propaganda.

Now for the lies about 11 September: The administration wanted to stifle the 11 September commission. So much that all four Jersey Girls (two whom voted for this president) now openly criticize George Jr. Presidental stifling explains why the commission did not start for 13 months AND why the entire commission threatened to resign when this administration intentionally stonewalled.

Hid facts that they feared voters might learn. Among those facts is a Presidental Daily Briefing (PDB) that said Al Qaeda was planning a major attack on something in the US (who and where), would involve planes and buildings (how), and would occur soon (when). This is what a president and Conduleezza Rice says is not "actionable"?

Had the president done as the Economist defines from a responsible leader, then at least three FBI offices (in IL, MN, and AZ) could have been empowered to continue their stifled investigations on what we now know was the 11 September attack. Instead, those agents were bluntly ordered not to investigate. Had the president done his job - been actionable - then John O'Neill, who had names of 11 September and USS Cole attackers, could have discovered the CIA knew those terrrorist had been in the US for months.

Ok. The commission beats up Condi Rice publically - demanding that PDB be publically released. She says they read it and therefore don't need it declassified. The commission wins only because they made a public stink about that 6 Aug 2001 PDB entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside the U.S." Because PDB was publically released, the commission is informed of two more (hidden) PDBs that also bluntly warned George Jr of same Al Qaeda attack. Now that is three PDBs that say quite bluntly the Al Qaeda attack is coming. But George Jr and Condi Rice see nothing actionable.

George Jr does nothing. Clinton previously took similar warning so seriously that even Custom Officer Debra(?) in WA is warned and discovers the LA Airport bomber. With backup, she runs him down. As a result, Millenium terrorist attacks on NYC, LA Airport, the Hilton(?) in Amman Jordan, Toronto, and I forget where else are also discovered and stopped. The King of Jordan visited a suburban house where Amman explosives were stored. So much explosives that the King said this was not a terrorist attack; it was a war! BTW, the USS The Sullivans attack was not discovered. It also did not happen because terrorists overloaded their boat; boat sunk. But Clinton did his job. He was actionable. Where was George Jr? Vacationing in Crawford? Could not find anything actionable in warnings that said "who, where, when, and how"?

No wonder the Jersey Girls are angry. The White House repeatedly atttempted to stifle the 911 Commission. It withheld facts that show the George Jr administration KNEW attacks were coming and did nothing. The George Jr administration refuses to admit they screwed up. EVen worse, they lie. They say information was not actionable - while they drove this nation's best anti-terrorism investigator into retirement - and a new job that would kill him on his first week as head of WTC Security.

In his last press conference, George Jr was asked three times if he had made mistakes. In the last question, he hemmed and hawwed for a full minute seeking just one mistake he had made. Clueless? He was informed of the 11 September attacks - and did nothing. Lying to CYA. This is god's choosen president? Sounds more like Satan's choosen man. he lies about things that men should never lie about. Lies and damnable lies.

Why are damnable lies acceptable and specific PDB facts not actionable? No wonder he must lie to CYA.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by tw
George Jr does nothing. Clinton previously took similar warning so seriously that even Custom Officer Debra(?) in WA is warned and discovers the LA Airport bomber.

Things are getting worse for the White House, Bremer Faulted Bush Before Terror Attacks. It appears that Paul Bremer, the man Bush picked for Iraq, said this 6 months before 9/11.

"What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this,'" Bremer said at a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism on Feb. 26, 2001.

Wow.