America's Antagonistic Allies - Page 3

Griff · 01-15-2004, 11:28 AM

If more folks would give us a number, I'd have like to see a comparison of time spent tv watching vs terror assessment number.

No Blister Gas btw

Undertoad · 01-15-2004, 11:57 AM

I was too glib with my last answer. In fact a large part of my number includes that emotional reaction.

If they do manage to fly a 747 into Caesar's Palace, again from the vulcan tw perspective, it's a small number of people and a small amount of infrastructure, so it's vitally important that we not give a shit. But that's just wishful thinking. The actual reaction of the country would be overwhelming, I'm guessing. The American people WOULD give a shit. A BIG shit.

The emotion of the second terrorist attack would probably be a lot shorter on tears and sorrow, and a lot longer on anger. We wouldn't nuke anyone the next day, but the resulting approach would be calculated and absolutely fierce. It might also produce martial law or legislation making the Patriot Act look like a ban on dancing.

And if there was a third attack at that point?

Griff · 01-15-2004, 02:14 PM

Too glib!? This is the Cellar aina?

Terrorism is all about the emotional reaction, so we're playing their game.

Thinking about fighting the 4th generation war.

headsplice · 01-15-2004, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Terrorism is all about the emotional reaction, so we're playing their game.

Bingo, you hit the nail right on the head. Ultimately, terrorism is a childish act. More concretely, terrorism is the act of someone who doesn't like something (say, the occupation of holy land by infidels) and then lashes out blindly against whoever has 'wronged' them. Al-Qaeda is, in one sense, the twelve-year-old on the schoolyard who sees a bully hanging out in their playground, throwing their weight around and striking back (the WTC attack is a proverbial kick to the nuts).
My question still hasn't been answered: how do we react to being kicked in the nuts? In terms of the playground analogy; we have to change from the playground bully (who has now not only kicked the other kid's ass, but now is sitting on him and giving him a wedgie, making him angrier), but we need to become some sort of (yes, I know, vague) principal or court appointed therapist figure that removes the offending child and the bully and makes them work out their differences.
I realize that the analogy breaks down somewhat (as analogies are wont to do), but, no one can say that our current tactics and strategies are effective.
So, someone come up with a better idea which does NOT include "nuking the shit out them" as that would only provoke another emotional reaction from them, pushing them closer to another act of terrorism, continuing the cycle.

Undertoad · 01-15-2004, 04:16 PM

The analogy breaks down too fast man. They haven't just attacked the US, for starts. It would be easier to list the countries they haven't attacked.

headsplice · 01-15-2004, 04:28 PM

Crap. You're right, the analogy does break down, in terms of the wider scope of terrorist operations.
The analogy breaks down even further in that there is no 'higher power' to which either side has recourse. In that respect, we could argue an expanded and more aggressive role for the UN, though I can't see anyone in the US govm't going for that since 'we' don't even think that an International Court should have dominion over us. Analogies are always circumspect for explanations.
However, I still argue that terrorism is an inherently childish reaction to a problem. I.e., since you've wronged me, instead of trying to sit down and talk about it like adults, terrorists lash out in tremendously destructive tantrums.

Pi · 01-15-2004, 04:42 PM

Yes but some countries don't react than USa and, not surprisingly, have less problems than USA. I think that USA manoeuvered itself in the role op world policeman and, as always, there are some anarchists who don't like the police an try to kick his ass. Maybe the policeman should bother a little bit more about his own country and own problems (like education and unemployement). Sometimes I have the impression that Dubya isn't a so good diplomat and reacts a little bit too messy and quick and so, even if he doesn't think bad, he does it bad or his ideas aren't understood as they should be.
You'll never can eradicate terrorism. Fuckuyama was wrong with his ideas about the end of History. There will always be a thesis and an anti-thesis.
Maybe mankind has a bad seed in itself and can't be happy, so there will always be terror, hate, anger, war on earth. And right now it's USA who gets it all. Maybe there will be a real war between Pakistan and India an the whole world-order will change. Maybe China will be the next superpower and the whole world-order will change.
So I'd say right now a 5 out of 10.

lumberjim · 01-15-2004, 05:21 PM

pi, what's your first language?

edit.....nevermind......i always forget to check profiles...german, i see

xoxoxoBruce · 01-15-2004, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
Too glib!? This is the Cellar aina?

Terrorism is all about the emotional reaction, so we're playing their game.

Thinking about fighting the 4th generation war.

Very interesting link, Griff. Thanks.

Pi · 01-15-2004, 11:33 PM

Lumberjim, never (but I really mean never), tell me again that my first language is german! Proud not to be a kraut!
btw it's luxembourgish

elSicomoro · 01-16-2004, 08:19 PM

You'll have to excuse Jimbo...he was just released from the state mental hospital.

As I understand it Pi, there are three official languages in Luxembourg, correct?

elSicomoro · 01-16-2004, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
I'm absolutely certain that my constant diet of information and considered engagement with the rest of the world make me much more informed than you are on the topic and much more qualified to judge the situation.

This is a joke, right?

Pi · 01-18-2004, 11:17 AM

That's right. Luxemburgish, french, german. Everybody does speak english an most of us some italian, portugues, spanish and/or netherlands...

01-15-2004, 11:28 AM	#31
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	If more folks would give us a number, I'd have like to see a comparison of time spent tv watching vs terror assessment number. No Blister Gas btw __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-15-2004, 02:14 PM	#33
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Too glib!? This is the Cellar aina? Terrorism is all about the emotional reaction, so we're playing their game. Thinking about fighting the 4th generation war. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-15-2004, 04:28 PM	#36
headsplice Relaxed Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 676	Crap. You're right, the analogy does break down, in terms of the wider scope of terrorist operations. The analogy breaks down even further in that there is no 'higher power' to which either side has recourse. In that respect, we could argue an expanded and more aggressive role for the UN, though I can't see anyone in the US govm't going for that since 'we' don't even think that an International Court should have dominion over us. Analogies are always circumspect for explanations. However, I still argue that terrorism is an inherently childish reaction to a problem. I.e., since you've wronged me, instead of trying to sit down and talk about it like adults, terrorists lash out in tremendously destructive tantrums. __________________ Don't Panic Last edited by headsplice; 01-15-2004 at 04:30 PM.

01-15-2004, 05:21 PM	#38
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	pi, what's your first language? edit.....nevermind......i always forget to check profiles...german, i see __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

01-15-2004, 11:57 AM	#32
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I was too glib with my last answer. In fact a large part of my number includes that emotional reaction. If they do manage to fly a 747 into Caesar's Palace, again from the vulcan tw perspective, it's a small number of people and a small amount of infrastructure, so it's vitally important that we not give a shit. But that's just wishful thinking. The actual reaction of the country would be overwhelming, I'm guessing. The American people WOULD give a shit. A BIG shit. The emotion of the second terrorist attack would probably be a lot shorter on tears and sorrow, and a lot longer on anger. We wouldn't nuke anyone the next day, but the resulting approach would be calculated and absolutely fierce. It might also produce martial law or legislation making the Patriot Act look like a ban on dancing. And if there was a third attack at that point?

01-15-2004, 04:16 PM	#35
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The analogy breaks down too fast man. They haven't just attacked the US, for starts. It would be easier to list the countries they haven't attacked.

01-15-2004, 04:42 PM	#37
Pi desperate finder Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 437	Yes but some countries don't react than USa and, not surprisingly, have less problems than USA. I think that USA manoeuvered itself in the role op world policeman and, as always, there are some anarchists who don't like the police an try to kick his ass. Maybe the policeman should bother a little bit more about his own country and own problems (like education and unemployement). Sometimes I have the impression that Dubya isn't a so good diplomat and reacts a little bit too messy and quick and so, even if he doesn't think bad, he does it bad or his ideas aren't understood as they should be. You'll never can eradicate terrorism. Fuckuyama was wrong with his ideas about the end of History. There will always be a thesis and an anti-thesis. Maybe mankind has a bad seed in itself and can't be happy, so there will always be terror, hate, anger, war on earth. And right now it's USA who gets it all. Maybe there will be a real war between Pakistan and India an the whole world-order will change. Maybe China will be the next superpower and the whole world-order will change. So I'd say right now a 5 out of 10.

01-15-2004, 11:33 PM	#40
Pi desperate finder Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 437	Lumberjim, never (but I really mean never), tell me again that my first language is german! Proud not to be a kraut! btw it's luxembourgish

01-16-2004, 08:19 PM	#41
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	You'll have to excuse Jimbo...he was just released from the state mental hospital. As I understand it Pi, there are three official languages in Luxembourg, correct?

01-18-2004, 11:17 AM	#43
Pi desperate finder Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 437	That's right. Luxemburgish, french, german. Everybody does speak english an most of us some italian, portugues, spanish and/or netherlands...

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