Gun does NOT equal cowboy!

[warch]

I'm an American for gun control.

"Studies" that claim to prove that increased gun ownership, conceal and carry laws cause a reduction in crime are flawed big time. Correlation does not prove causation. If there is a reduction in the yearly crime rate in Sarasota, FL the year after conceal and carry legistation is enacted, does that prove that the reduction is indeed caused by the presence of legal guns as deterants or is there a chance that other factors contributed to this decline? changing demographics, shifting laws, drug treatment programs, weather? Come on.
Does the poverty ridden inner city of Chicago have a higher incidence of crime than Sarasota Florida? yes.Would the crime, death and injury rate in Chicago's southside decrease when everyone is allowed to be armed? Well obviously not, because essentially everyone is armed allowed or otherwise. So the next step is to have everyone armed more. Radar's nukes perhaps. The cops need more firepower. I'm not convinced that gun proliferation serves as a crime deterent. I think true crime prevention addresses the motivating contexts of criminal behavior- economics, education, health, community.

[elSicomoro]

Warch, I agree with you in that not every study is perfect, and that correlation does not prove causation. After all, we have CCW here, and crime is apparently up in the City of Philadelphia (I'd have to look at harder numbers...stats are being flung around left and right right now due to the mayoral race).

But I think you're taking it to a bit of the extreme here...and I'm saying this as someone that was once for gun control (and voted against CCW in MO 4 years ago).

If there is a reduction in the yearly crime rate in Sarasota, FL the year after conceal and carry legistation is enacted, does that prove that the reduction is indeed caused by the presence of legal guns as deterants or is there a chance that other factors contributed to this decline?

In such a short time span (one year), with other items being constant...unless people have suddenly gotten moral transplants, I'd say that you'd have to point to CCW.

Would the crime, death and injury rate in Chicago's southside decrease when everyone is allowed to be armed?

Not everyone is allowed to be armed due to prior run-ins with the law, mental issues, etc.

And criminals don't care about gun laws--that's why they're criminals. Chicago has had a handgun ban for years now...it doesn't look like it's helped much.

But if the state of IL were to allow CCW and the City of Chicago dropped its ban on handguns, I bet one would feel more confident walking down S. Halsted with a concealed weapon...and a criminal might think twice about committing a crime. Although, criminals can be incredibly stupid. But I do think you'll see a fair drop in crime rather quickly...not massive or overwhelming, but enough to notice a difference.

So the next step is to have everyone armed more. Radar's nukes perhaps.

But only takes one well-placed bullet. You could be armed to the hilt, but one bullet in your skull will kill your ass just fine.

The cops need more firepower. I'm not convinced that gun proliferation serves as a crime deterent. I think true crime prevention addresses the motivating contexts of criminal behavior- economics, education, health, community.

I dunno...cops with more firepower COULD be helpful. But then you run the risk of moving closer to a police-like state.

And I do agree that we need to focus on the "fundamentals." Hell, that could solve a lot of problems. But until we do, people deserve to have a fair chance against a criminal, right? Police aren't going to help you after you're dead, other than tagging you and calling your relatives. Wouldn't you like the opportunity to protect yourself at the very moment a crime is going down?

If I'm not mistaken, CCW is now the law in MN...is everyone freaking out over it? Is everyone arming to the teeth? Or is life going on as normal?

[warch]

In such a short time span (one year), with other items being constant...unless people have suddenly gotten moral transplants, I'd say that you'd have to point to CCW.

I suggest that other items- were not constant, and were not considered in the analysis. Maybe increasing the number of gated retirement communities lowered crime. Or maybe it was the extra funding the Catholic missions received. Or maybe there were less days over 98 deg. But as proof of causation, its not clear, its correlation that proves nothing. You can measure a lower rate of criminal incidents,(assuming the definition of criminal incidents remains consistent), but targeting the probable cause of the change take more control. Here is some interesting info on John Lott whose study is most often sited http://www.citypages.com/databank/24...ticle11064.asp

And criminals don't care about gun laws--that's why they're criminals. Chicago has had a handgun ban for years now...it doesn't look like it's helped much.

The handgun ban instituted to lower a crime problem, (just as the above argument) does not address the motivation or prevention of crime. This ban is a desperate attempt to lower the number of available weapons, to not add to the problem. But as you know its easy to get a gun if you want one or feel you need one, criminal or not. If Chicago dropped their gun ban, I dont think you'd see much difference with out other efforts to reduce crime.Its way way more complex.

Lets re-arm all Iraqies and see if crime is reduced. Lets allow good kids who have passed a gun ed course to carry to school and see if that reduces school shootings.

I'm saying that many cops are outarmed right now. From armour piercing bullets, automatic weapons, other weapon innovations.. the ante keeps going up. What is ok to ban? should we allow assault weapons for those deemed legal?

Early intervention in health and education has been proven to lower criminal activity. But that requires a longterm investment and interest in the public safety of a community as well as the individual. Such initiatives are starting to be looked at for their economic impact as well. Head Start, Success by Six.

f I'm not mistaken, CCW is now the law in MN...is everyone freaking out over it? Is everyone arming to the teeth? Or is life going on as normal?

Well I saw a man get shot in a gang drive-by well before the new law. Would an armed civic response, or the threat of one, have prevented the shooting? Nah. If crossfire had broken out would more of us at the bus stop been at higher risk of injury? Yeah.

So far, the main impact I can see of the conceal and carry laws in MN is a boom in sales of signs that state "(name of establishment) bans guns in these premises" (They cant say "on" unless you own the property.) Gun ban signs are posted everywhere- small businesses, churches, restaurants, bars, theaters, schools including this University, Xcel energy center hockey games, the state fair grounds, city hall, the state capital, . You can pack it in the parking lot. Also sited at most community gatherings "Minnesotans against getting shot" petitions to have the law repealed.

Gun deaths continue - the Cold Spring school shooting . The shooter was talked down by an unarmed teacher. Got his gun from home where it was a legal purchase- Dad's in law enforcement. This is now a familiar scenario. Troubled kids with access to this tool will use it.

And a few weeks back a woman was killed and her lawyer shot through the neck at a court hearing, the hand gun was legally purchased by the shooter, a cousin of the victim. The shooter lured the two to a court house she knew didnt install metal detectors. The gun ban sign didnt deter her actions. Again crossfire in lobby wouldnt have done much preventively.

People who suffer moments of unstablity, or consider suicide, or are immature, stupid and curious, or are murderous, when there are guns available, will use this effective tool on themselves and others. My concern is that a concealed handgun law will not make communities safer, but rather make more handguns more available to all imperfect audiences.

whew, sorry so long. Whats gotten into me?

[warch]

Oh and by the way, Happy belated Birthday T. You old!

[be-bop]

So when I asked the question about the American way of life and the attitude to guns two things appear to come to the fore. Self protection against crime against the person and putting food on the table.
I can handle the protection bit,but the hunting hmmm.
Most people in the UK have no experience with guns much less using them for self defence.A farmer in the UK has just got out of jail got a 5 year stretch for shooting 2 guys who broke into his house.killed one and injured the other did not get parole because he would not admit to doing wrong and said would do it again if the same thing happened.Thats the attitude to guns by the authorities here.Crazy or what?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by warch
I'm an American for gun control.

"Studies" that claim to prove that increased gun ownership, conceal and carry laws cause a reduction in crime are flawed big time. Correlation does not prove causation. If there is a reduction in the yearly crime rate in Sarasota, FL the year after conceal and carry legistation is enacted, does that prove that the reduction is indeed caused by the presence of legal guns as deterants or is there a chance that other factors contributed to this decline? changing demographics, shifting laws, drug treatment programs, weather? Come on.
Does the poverty ridden inner city of Chicago have a higher incidence of crime than Sarasota Florida? yes.Would the crime, death and injury rate in Chicago's southside decrease when everyone is allowed to be armed? Well obviously not, because essentially everyone is armed allowed or otherwise. So the next step is to have everyone armed more. Radar's nukes perhaps. The cops need more firepower. I'm not convinced that gun proliferation serves as a crime deterent. I think true crime prevention addresses the motivating contexts of criminal behavior- economics, education, health, community.

OK, you don't believe concealed Carry laws made the crime rate go down. Fine, but the point is THEY DIDN"T MAKE IT GO UP, so what's the problem?

People who suffer moments of unstablity, or consider suicide, or are immature, stupid and curious, or are murderous, when there are guns available, will use this effective tool on themselves and others. My concern is that a concealed handgun law will not make communities safer, but rather make more handguns more available to all imperfect audiences.

Apples and oranges. The guns are already in the community, in the homes and businesses. I don't think many people are buying guns because concealed carry becomes an option. They are carrying guns they already own. Although I will admit some people have told me they are buying a different gun that's more conducive to concealment. Personally I don't carry most of the time, but there are times and places where I prefer to exercise that option.

[warch]

OK, you don't believe concealed Carry laws made the crime rate go down. Fine, but the point is THEY DIDN"T MAKE IT GO UP, so what's the problem?

I do believe that increased gun availabilty and proliferation, namely handguns and automatic weapons,will serve to increase incidents of gun violence, both criminal and accidental.

Bet youre gonna ask me to prove it and I'll hafta do a big old google search to do my best... but it seems kind of logical to me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

And that has to do with concealed carry, how?

[warch]

Conceal and carry laws increase gun sales, thus increase the number of guns in a community. Particularly new guns, youve mentioned, that conceal better, as well as accessories like purses with secretive compartments.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They may increase the total slightly but not the number of owners. CC laws are not prompting people who would not normally own a gun to buy them. They are giving the people who own them another option in usage. Then of course since the thugs don't know who those people are, those that carry are helping to protect everyone by default.
Having a gun around may make you nervous but if you wake up to the sound of an electric chainsaw, it's too late.

[JeepNGeorge]

Originally posted by warch


I do believe that increased gun availabilty and proliferation, namely handguns and automatic weapons,will serve to increase incidents of gun violence, both criminal and accidental.

How many times has a legally owned automatic weapon been used to commit a crime???? And by automatic I mean full auto, not semi.

[zippyt]

from the UK , Nuff said ,

[Uryoces]

Check out Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. I thought I was not gonig to like it, but I ended up agreeing with him in his final conclusion about irresponsible media. He showed that there are as many gun owners in Canada as the US [aside: I do not know about conceal carry laws in Canada], but far fewer crimes.

Blacks are portrayed in the media as thugs, the police are portrayed as out to arrest and prosecute any black they can find, white people are mass murderers, terrorista are around every corner. A single murder takes center stage, and is short stroked for 15 minutes of the 30 minute local news.

Michael Moore also paints the US as warmongering and bloodthirsty; that's debatable. That's debated every day here in nearly every thread.

It's the only things that Moore could find different between the US and Canada. I'm not going to live in fear and waste my life; I turned off the news and the networks long ago, and I'm much happier. Don't believe all the gun hysteria you read. They do not, and never have had any mystical powers. My guns are tools just like my dremel and my saw; absolutely nothing else.

[warch]

Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access. Also daily carried guns, stored in bags, holsters, and cars are less secure and increase the risk of loss or theft- whether by criminal or baby... Like your keys, your wallet, your cellphone, your car.

I'm not for banning all guns. I'm for rational control of gun proliferation, better enforcement of gun sale laws and background checks. I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.

I'm for supporting law enforcement in the prosecution of gun crimes and most of all, for real, effective crime prevention- early intervention, education, health services. You can pay for it now, or you can pay much more for it later.

Going deer hunting with your uncle, Having your secured gun in your home for protection, or enjoying the sport of target shooting with your girlfriend is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.

Why are guns banned from courthouses? Why are guns banned from stadiums? Why is that venue's risk considered more important than the public's Target parking lot? (no pun intended) If concealed weapons pose no greater risk, why are there metal detectors popping up everywhere?

from the Centers for Disease Control:
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.


oh, sorry. found the above stats collected at the National Education Association website.

[russotto]

[quote]Originally posted by warch
Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

I wonder if that includes the Suburban full of machine guns BATF lost a few years ago.

Guns are stolen, therefore people shouldn't be allowed to have them. Yeah. That makes sense.

How about "guns are stolen from cars and homes, therefore people should be encouraged to carry them at all times"?

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access.

If the only reason we don't kill those around us is that we don't have immediate access to a gun, we should all be in mental hospitals, not walking (and driving) around free.

I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.


Why should the cops decide whether or not a person can carry a gun? They are supposed to be public servants, not masters. They certainly think they are "above" non-cops, which is reason enough to deny them that power.


...is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.


Somehow I think "hidden" is a strawman here. Or are you for legal "open carry"?