6/15/2003: Palestinians swarm for body parts

[Undertoad]

Backing it up:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-...o_Israel1.html

Summary: the real money starts in 1974, after the wars in which the current borders were established. The US gave minor economic assistance in the early years which quickly dropped off to nothing. Military loans were minor until 1971 and certainly meaningless in the 1967 war where that land was taken.

Another page at the site notes that "Between 1946 and 1971, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $60 million a year, a total of $1.5 billion. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year."

[goethean]

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/hitler.htm

Q: "Mr. Gandhi, I understand the concept of non-violence and civil dis-obedience. Do you really think it would work in all situations? For example, against a monster like Hitler ?"

A: Non-violence does not mean making peace. On the other hand, it means fighting bravely and sincerely for truth and doing what is just. Like all fights, there will be a terrible loss and pain. But a satyagrahi (soldier of civil disobedience) must go on.
My success with civil disobedience in South Africa and in India has not come easy. A large number of people sacrificed a great deal, including their lives while fighting for truth and justice.

The doctrine of Satyagraha works on the principle that you make the so called enemy see and realize the injustice he is engaged in. It can work only when you believe in God and the goodness of the people to see that they are wrong. As a satyagrahi, I do believe that non-violence is a potent weapon against all evils. I warn you however, that the victory will not come easy- just like it will not come easy with violent methods such as fighting with weaponry.

[Torrere]

Thank you UT, I hadn't realized that before. I had thought that the aid from the US had been pretty much steady since 1948. I had hunted for information on Google before posting that, and all of the sites that I found seemed to imply that the US had steadfastly supported Israel in financial and military (et cetera) manners.

goethan: Hm. I will have to search for where I heard that.

[goethean]

<a href="http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm">Gandhi on Palestine, 1938</a>

[xoxoxoBruce]

In the chart UT linked there is (pre 1984) about 12 B in loans. Does anyone know if these were repaid? Forgiven? Outstanding?

[richlevy]

Originally posted by rumi
Similarly, it's unfair to say Palestinians are worse because they shoot 5 year olds in the head while Israelis kill innocents only incidentally. (By the way, I think anyone who shoots a child -- Palestininian or Israeli -- is just evil.)

Sorry, but a suicide bomber is a lot like a sniper. They get to look in the face of anyone they are about to kill. That means when they get on a bus or walk into a room they know who they are about to kill and have an opportunity to pick a different target.

The Irgun, which I believe Yitzhak Rabin was a member of, attacked the King David Hotel in 1946. Between the Arab rhetoric and the Israel rhetoric I found this site in the United Kingdom. Since the British were the targets of the attack, I used them as a moderate viewpoint.

The King David Hotel Attack

When was the last time Hamas called in a warning before a bombing? The suicide attacks are pure terror attacks against civilians, intended to cause as much bloodshed as possible.

-The Israelis kill a lot of children, and intentionally, with their tanks and rubber coated bullets. That's a well-documented fact, and one of the reasons the Israelis don't want an international force there to monitor crimes and keep the peace in the occupied territories.

If the Israelis wanted to kill, the bullets wouldn't be rubber. Most non-specific attacks by Israelis are against buildings, not people, and are reactionary. The Israelis don't wake up in the morning and say to themselves 'I'm going to kill some random person today'. I'm not personally a big fan of assasination, but since it is also the current US policy to target military and political leaders without a formal declaration of war, the Israelis use of rockets on vehicles at least shows an attempt to get to the people involved. The fact that Hamas and the other extremists don't go after military and political targets just shows what kind of pussies they are.

-In our legal system, there is no difference between killing someone intentionally and killing someone unintentionally while trying to kill someone else, if you know that there is a likelyhood that innocents will die.

Well then maybe you should stop trying to justify the killing of innocent civilians and try to work towards an equitable peace.

You can't say the Israelis are better or more humane at all. They are simply better equipped to kill with more efficiency.

Compare the Palestinians treatment by Jordan during Black September to their treatment by the Israelis during the intifadah. I personally think Sharon is a reactionary nut, but even he is limited by working for a democratic government that is not completely hard-line.

If the Palestinians did even 1/10th of what they have done in Israel in an Arab nation, as they did in September 1970, we would have no need for discussion, because no Palestinians would be left alive.

I certainly blame Sharon for some of where we are today, but every time I see the celebration which meets an announcement of a suicide attack, I have to give Sharon points for dealing with the situation. Terrorist is a very loaded word, which is sometimes used incorrectly to discredit guerilla or rebel actions. Terrorism is the cold-blooded targeting of random civilians in an effort to strike fear into a civilian population. It is not directed against soldiers in uniform or political leaders, it is directed against any target, the more shocking the better.

A terrorist is like a hunter who shoots a rabbit and pretends it's a lion. Its a craven act against a defenseless target. I personally don't think these guys are going to be rewarded in the afterlife. Compared to someone like Saladin, who fought (and won) against the crusaders they come up very, very short.

I look at the civilian body count in Iraq, the destruction of the Chinese embassy, and at the downing of a civilian airliner, and I have a hard time separating issues, motivations, etc. The best I can come up with is that in a war, you are measured by what actions you have taken to avoid civilian casualties, knowing that there will be casualties. In our country there are many kinds of killing - justifiable homicide, depraved indifference, manslaughter, and murder.

In almost any civilized army in the world, if they had a soldier who deliberately aimed his weapon at a woman or child (who presented no visible or percieved threat), and who pulled the trigger, that soldier would be in prison or dead. This does not always happen. There are massacres and cover-ups. But it is the stated goal. There are warriors and there are soldiers.

Terrorists are the lowest of the low. I'm sure they will get to see paradise. As soon as they get in the gates they'll probably hand them a broom. Someone has to clean up after the real heroes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well done ,Richlevy.

[Lady Sidhe]

I have a radical idea, here....

Why don't we just mind our own business and let them kill each other? They've been doing it forever...who appointed us the world's policeman? Why should we get our people killed in something that affects us not at all?

Why are we so concerned? Really? I'm not being sarcastic. I wanna know. I wanna know why we feel we have to intervene in everyone's business, especially when it doesn't have anything to do with us.


Sidhe

[Bullitt]

I agree completely with Sidhe. Some might say that "with power comes responsibility". WHich is very true however, that responsibility is not the be the gestapo of the world, it is the responsibility to control our own power and not just fling out our long military arm wherever we deem fit.
Saying that, I am definitly not for isolationism though, just look where that got us in WW1. We need to re-evaluate where, how, and why we send our forces, our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, off to fight and die.

[Clodfobble]

Why are we so concerned? Really? I'm not being sarcastic. I wanna know. I wanna know why we feel we have to intervene in everyone's business, especially when it doesn't have anything to do with us.

The simple answer is we have a reasonably large Jewish population here in the US, and they care about what happens around Israel.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Why are we so concerned? Really? I'm not being sarcastic. I wanna know. I wanna know why we feel we have to intervene in everyone's business, especially when it doesn't have anything to do with us.

Guilt over the Holocaust, along with what Clodfobble said.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
I have a radical idea, here....

Why don't we just mind our own business and let them kill each other?

Because Israel is one of our forward posts in our fight against the Evil Soviet Empire.

[Undertoad]

When picking allies in the world it is better to pick the ones that are democratic, productive, powerful, well-located for military operations, and don't cut off their women's clitorises.

[zippyt]

Profound statement Toad !!!!!!
I see a tag line !!!

[elSicomoro]

Okay, Toad...post some articles about the Palestinians and FGM.