What car should I buy? - Page 3

lumberjim · 12-08-2013, 11:50 PM

The quadra driveII system in my Jeep is a mechanical system. Not an expensive computer. It uses the vari-lock gear to slip power to any of the 4 wheels that are getting traction.

http://icpcitation.com/variloc_theory.htm

You are clearly out of your depth, tw. Why dont you sit a few plays out.

lumberjim · 12-08-2013, 11:51 PM

Oh, and I was out driving in the snow today, and it works GREAT!

lumberjim · 12-08-2013, 11:53 PM

Lola, if you decide on the Altima, give me a call. I'll help you with it.

glatt · 12-10-2013, 01:34 PM

ABS is better than skidding though, isn't it? You can stop faster without ABS if you are very familiar with your brakes and stopping hard just under the threshold of foot pressure that would lock up the wheels and put you into a skid. But most people aren't practiced enough to do that, so ABS gives them the next best thing. And a significant fringe benefit is being able to steer while standing on the brake pedal, pushing it through the floor.

ABS is a great equalizer. Makes average drivers almost as good as top drivers at stopping.

footfootfoot · 12-10-2013, 02:56 PM

I fucking love my Hyundai Sonata.

217,000 miles with no problems. Just routine maintenance.

Still looking great apart from the rust and the slight smell of dead deer in the trunk when it rains...

All the electronic shit still works.

lumberjim · 12-10-2013, 06:31 PM

i'd like to see YOUR numbers that say that 4WD makes a car less stable at speed, tw. or is it just an opinion based in feelings?

If you're going down a wet road at 55 mph, and you hit a long puddle...like the kind that form in lanes where the road has rippled from use..... and the tires on the right side begin to hydroplane.... (most 2 wheel drive cars are actually ONE wheel drive)

.... if that drive tire happens to be the one to lose traction suddenly and begins to spin faster because the gas is still being applied and there is no resistance from the surface...

.... the driver senses the loss of traction, maybe corrects course to get away from the puddle, and now that wheel that had been spinning extra fast because it lost traction, GRABS the drier spot, and weee! your car jerks, maybe you get back into the puddle, suddenly slowing, and wooo! you're in a spin.

the car that shunts power to the tracking wheel when it detects spin maintains even acceleration the whole time as they swerve around the dickhead in the honda that just bought it in front of them.

Roll over occurs more in vehicles that have high centers of gravity and narrow tracks. I don't know what that has to do with 4WD. The Wrangler will roll if it's been lifted 6 inches. The worst culprit back in the early 90's was the Bronco II. VERY tall and narrow. The Suzuki got all the press, but the Bronc was worse. I put 1.5 inch spacers (3" wider track) on my commander and a 2.5" lift kit. It's a 5200 lb vehicle. plus it has YAW control...VDC ...it engages the ABS to correct detected roll....

I'd imagine it would roll more easily than an Altima... but it's not scary to drive at all. It really did do a great job in that snow on Sunday. The Nitto Dura grappler tires are new and excellent, as well.

As for ABS, bruce is right. it's not supposed to make you stop FASTER. it's supposed to help you stop SAFER.

Off road or in deep snow, ABS lengthens stopping distance because a locked up tire will amass a pile of dirt or snow in front and that actually aids in deceleration. but how often do we really drive in that condition?

orthodoc · 12-10-2013, 07:17 PM

ABS can lengthen stopping distance on wet roads as well. The focus is on safer stopping, as you say, so the brakes adjust to avoid locking the wheel. You're not supposed to pump or feather anti-lock brakes because the system does it for you.

I love, love, love my 2005 4Runner. And I'm getting it back! Yay! It has never gotten stuck - in deep mud, driving across snowy fields, you name it. Although it did once go into a 4-wheel slide on I-80 in the PA Alleghenies and almost took me through the too-low guardrail of a high bridge. Wasn't its fault; I forgave it, once my heart restarted.

lumberjim · 12-10-2013, 08:09 PM

lumberjim · 12-10-2013, 08:30 PM

THIS IS IMPRESSIVE

check out the amount of articulation this thing gets. around 17 & again at 55 seconds... you see the wheels stretch down to stay in contact with the ground, and squish up to allow it to climb over things...

glatt · 12-11-2013, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... you see the wheels stretch down to stay in contact with the ground...

I saw a tow truck the other day. I was really annoyed with it because I was waiting to jaywalk, and it was the only car on the road, but it was going really slow, so I had to wait a long time. It was towing a van, and wasn't a very big tow truck. When it got in front of me, I realized why it was going so slowly. the pavement had slight ripples to it, and every time it hit a ripple, the tow truck's front wheels bounced off the pavement and lingered in the air a few inches above the pavement for at least a few seconds. This was at about 10 mph. Almost no weight on those front wheels. I watched it for as long as I could, because I figured it was going to smash in to something, but it was going straight, and had no trouble doing that. I wish I could have seen it try to turn.

glatt · 12-11-2013, 09:02 AM

Lola,
more important to you than the ABS and AWD debates is the radio.

I'm not being patronizing. I'm dead serious. Many new cars have very difficult to operate radios, controlled by touch screens. You cant' just reach over with your eyes on the road and turn the knobs by feel or push the familiar buttons. You need to pull over to operate the damn things. It's a safety issue. When you get in any of these cars to try them out, see if you can operate the radio while driving. Also see if you can adjust the climate control. Turn on the defrost. These should be very simple things, and some cars get them wrong. It's a trendy thing now to put touch screens in cars and I'm dismayed by it. Touch screens have no business in cars. If you can't operate it by feel with a split second glance, it shouldn't be in a car.

You may find that an otherwise great car is dead to you because you can't operate the radio or turn on the defrost without pulling over.

Having said that, based mainly on the consumer report ratings and my own gut feelings and preferences, I would say that if money is of little concern, you should get the CR top rated Hybrid Camry XLE for $29K. If money is of great concern, you should get the Hyundai Sonata GLS for $22K. If you fall somewhere in the middle, you should look at the Honda Accord LX for $23K and the Camry LE for $23K. I'd also look at the Mazda 6 Sport for $24k and the Nissan Altima 2.5 S for $23K. All are excellent choices.

I'm not generally a fan of 6 cylinder engines. They have more power, which comes in handy about 1% of the time you are driving, but is never absolutely necessary. And they get poor to mediocre fuel economy 100% of the time you are driving. I'd focus on the 4 cylinder models. They all go fast enough to get you a speeding ticket and will keep up with traffic.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-11-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

You cant' just reach over with your eyes on the road and turn the knobs by feel or push the familiar buttons. You need to pull over to operate the damn things. It's a safety issue.

Just turn on the cruise control, that way the car drives itself and you can devote your full attention to the radio... or making a sandwich.

orthodoc · 12-10-2013, 09:14 PM

No, no, no. Speed-sensitive steering does NOT mean that a driver knows about black ice (where are your numbers proving that SUV drivers don't know about black ice and other dangerous conditions, tw?). It means that the steering is closer to pure rack-and-pinion at lower speeds and has a little play at high speeds, so that amateur drivers don't inadvertently twitch the wheel at 110 mph and throw themselves across the median.

And you're confusing 4WD with all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive assigns more drive to the wheel(s) with traction. 4WD drives equally from all four wheels. All-wheel drive was engineered for higher speeds; 4WD is meant for low speeds. Do not use 4WD above 50 mph.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-10-2013, 10:29 PM

tw's throwing around information he heard decades ago, and even the little that has some basis of truth is sadly out of date.
But this isn't helping Lola because being an urban Texan, I doubt she needs anything capable of real tough going, just family transportation.

tw · 12-10-2013, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthodoc

It means that the steering is closer to pure rack-and-pinion at lower speeds and has a little play at high speeds,

Heavy power steering so common in SUVs means you cannot tell when tires start losing traction. With speed sensitive steering, you can actually feel which wheel has struck ice. Know that a road is turning to ice long before the crash can happen.

There is no significant increased play at higher speeds. Once a car is moving more than 5 MPH, then power steering is no longer useful. It only keeps the driver ignorant of road conditions. Twitching at 110 is not eliminated by speed sensitive steering. Vehicles with worst steering keep power steering always on. To mask an inferior design and poor tracking. Especially true of some vehicles that did not use rack-and-pinion (ie trucks and SUVs).

A 'not informed' driver 'feels' safer when power steering is always left on. No speed sensitive steering is why some SUV drivers *feel* safer on ice. They have no idea. Power steering always left on also masks a crappy steering system. And can increase the automaker's profit by $20.

Lumberjim - why do I keep posting this here and in another thread. And you still do not read it?
Again: All-wheel drive and 4 wheel drive are functionally same. The original 4 wheel drive was so tightly interlocked that Jeeps would even flip over front to back. Newer designs 'loosened' that interlock while new names were invented for each variation. But in every case, wheels still must be interlocked. Otherwise it (4 wheel / all-wheel) does not get you started.

Lumberjim, your own video demonstrated 4 wheel drives unable to move when some wheels spin and the interlock is too loose. If any one wheel spins on ice and the wheels are not interlocked tightly, then the engine only spins that wheel faster and spins no other wheel. Even your video demonstrates what I kept saying here and in other threads.

Sometimes you can hear tires fighting even in a parking lot. If tires rotate independently, then a screech on sharp turns does not happen. Some SUVs are so tightly interlocked as to even screech tires while turning into a parking space. Sales brochures forget to mention that.

Interlocking is, for example, why I found a new all-wheel (4 wheel) drive truck under a porch. His truck went off road, through a mailbox, and ended up underneath the porch. Why? He was using all-wheel drive. He believed popular myths rather than learn why interlocked wheels decrease safety and control at speed.

Posted again are many reasons why 4/all wheel drive means less safety at speed. And why it is necessary to get the vehicle started. The next useful reply will finally say why interlocked wheels are safer; why tires do not fight for traction.

Myths about four/all wheel drive and ABS (which the same people repeatedly deny without saying why) are irrelevant to Lola Bunny who is asking for a safer and more reliable vehicle. Who will tell her she needs all-wheel drive ... by saying why.

12-08-2013, 11:50 PM	#1
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	The quadra driveII system in my Jeep is a mechanical system. Not an expensive computer. It uses the vari-lock gear to slip power to any of the 4 wheels that are getting traction. http://icpcitation.com/variloc_theory.htm You are clearly out of your depth, tw. Why dont you sit a few plays out. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-08-2013, 11:51 PM	#2
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	Oh, and I was out driving in the snow today, and it works GREAT! __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-08-2013, 11:53 PM	#3
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	Lola, if you decide on the Altima, give me a call. I'll help you with it. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-10-2013, 02:56 PM	#5
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	I fucking love my Hyundai Sonata. 217,000 miles with no problems. Just routine maintenance. Still looking great apart from the rust and the slight smell of dead deer in the trunk when it rains... All the electronic shit still works. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

12-10-2013, 06:31 PM	#6
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	i'd like to see YOUR numbers that say that 4WD makes a car less stable at speed, tw. or is it just an opinion based in feelings? If you're going down a wet road at 55 mph, and you hit a long puddle...like the kind that form in lanes where the road has rippled from use..... and the tires on the right side begin to hydroplane.... (most 2 wheel drive cars are actually ONE wheel drive) .... if that drive tire happens to be the one to lose traction suddenly and begins to spin faster because the gas is still being applied and there is no resistance from the surface... .... the driver senses the loss of traction, maybe corrects course to get away from the puddle, and now that wheel that had been spinning extra fast because it lost traction, GRABS the drier spot, and weee! your car jerks, maybe you get back into the puddle, suddenly slowing, and wooo! you're in a spin. the car that shunts power to the tracking wheel when it detects spin maintains even acceleration the whole time as they swerve around the dickhead in the honda that just bought it in front of them. Roll over occurs more in vehicles that have high centers of gravity and narrow tracks. I don't know what that has to do with 4WD. The Wrangler will roll if it's been lifted 6 inches. The worst culprit back in the early 90's was the Bronco II. VERY tall and narrow. The Suzuki got all the press, but the Bronc was worse. I put 1.5 inch spacers (3" wider track) on my commander and a 2.5" lift kit. It's a 5200 lb vehicle. plus it has YAW control...VDC ...it engages the ABS to correct detected roll.... I'd imagine it would roll more easily than an Altima... but it's not scary to drive at all. It really did do a great job in that snow on Sunday. The Nitto Dura grappler tires are new and excellent, as well. As for ABS, bruce is right. it's not supposed to make you stop FASTER. it's supposed to help you stop SAFER. Off road or in deep snow, ABS lengthens stopping distance because a locked up tire will amass a pile of dirt or snow in front and that actually aids in deceleration. but how often do we really drive in that condition? __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-10-2013, 01:34 PM	#4
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	ABS is better than skidding though, isn't it? You can stop faster without ABS if you are very familiar with your brakes and stopping hard just under the threshold of foot pressure that would lock up the wheels and put you into a skid. But most people aren't practiced enough to do that, so ABS gives them the next best thing. And a significant fringe benefit is being able to steer while standing on the brake pedal, pushing it through the floor. ABS is a great equalizer. Makes average drivers almost as good as top drivers at stopping.

12-10-2013, 07:17 PM	#7
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	ABS can lengthen stopping distance on wet roads as well. The focus is on safer stopping, as you say, so the brakes adjust to avoid locking the wheel. You're not supposed to pump or feather anti-lock brakes because the system does it for you. I love, love, love my 2005 4Runner. And I'm getting it back! Yay! It has never gotten stuck - in deep mud, driving across snowy fields, you name it. Although it did once go into a 4-wheel slide on I-80 in the PA Alleghenies and almost took me through the too-low guardrail of a high bridge. Wasn't its fault; I forgave it, once my heart restarted. __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

12-10-2013, 08:09 PM	#8
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	__________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-10-2013, 08:30 PM	#9
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	THIS IS IMPRESSIVE check out the amount of articulation this thing gets. around 17 & again at 55 seconds... you see the wheels stretch down to stay in contact with the ground, and squish up to allow it to climb over things... __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

12-11-2013, 09:02 AM	#11
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Lola, more important to you than the ABS and AWD debates is the radio. I'm not being patronizing. I'm dead serious. Many new cars have very difficult to operate radios, controlled by touch screens. You cant' just reach over with your eyes on the road and turn the knobs by feel or push the familiar buttons. You need to pull over to operate the damn things. It's a safety issue. When you get in any of these cars to try them out, see if you can operate the radio while driving. Also see if you can adjust the climate control. Turn on the defrost. These should be very simple things, and some cars get them wrong. It's a trendy thing now to put touch screens in cars and I'm dismayed by it. Touch screens have no business in cars. If you can't operate it by feel with a split second glance, it shouldn't be in a car. You may find that an otherwise great car is dead to you because you can't operate the radio or turn on the defrost without pulling over. Having said that, based mainly on the consumer report ratings and my own gut feelings and preferences, I would say that if money is of little concern, you should get the CR top rated Hybrid Camry XLE for $29K. If money is of great concern, you should get the Hyundai Sonata GLS for $22K. If you fall somewhere in the middle, you should look at the Honda Accord LX for $23K and the Camry LE for $23K. I'd also look at the Mazda 6 Sport for $24k and the Nissan Altima 2.5 S for $23K. All are excellent choices. I'm not generally a fan of 6 cylinder engines. They have more power, which comes in handy about 1% of the time you are driving, but is never absolutely necessary. And they get poor to mediocre fuel economy 100% of the time you are driving. I'd focus on the 4 cylinder models. They all go fast enough to get you a speeding ticket and will keep up with traffic.

12-10-2013, 09:14 PM	#13
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	No, no, no. Speed-sensitive steering does NOT mean that a driver knows about black ice (where are your numbers proving that SUV drivers don't know about black ice and other dangerous conditions, tw?). It means that the steering is closer to pure rack-and-pinion at lower speeds and has a little play at high speeds, so that amateur drivers don't inadvertently twitch the wheel at 110 mph and throw themselves across the median. And you're confusing 4WD with all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive assigns more drive to the wheel(s) with traction. 4WD drives equally from all four wheels. All-wheel drive was engineered for higher speeds; 4WD is meant for low speeds. Do not use 4WD above 50 mph. __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

12-10-2013, 10:29 PM	#14
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	tw's throwing around information he heard decades ago, and even the little that has some basis of truth is sadly out of date. But this isn't helping Lola because being an urban Texan, I doubt she needs anything capable of real tough going, just family transportation. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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