Recovery?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by classicman

$1.7 billion: for deduction of sales tax from car purchases,

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Even the last one, which I would guess is the cash for clunkers was got a huge F.

It's not the cash for clunkers program, it is a tax deduction. You have always been able to deduct your state income taxes from your federal taxes. But recently two changes went into effect:

1.) you can also deduct your state sales tax paid (either an IRS-calculated estimate based on your disposable income and the sales tax rate in your area, or the actual amount you spent if you're neurotic and have saved every receipt for everything you bought all year long.)

2.) On top of that estimate, you can also add the sales tax for any big-ticket items you have a receipt for, not just new/used cars but boats, motorcycles, home renovation--anything you spent over a few thousand bucks on.

We have benefitted greatly from #1 for several years now, since Texas doesn't have an income tax but instead has a very high sales tax rate, and we benefitted from #2 a couple years ago when we traded in the ancient truck for a slightly-less-ancient Corolla.

In addition, we have also personally benefitted directly from (as in, measurable money in our bank account that wouldn't be there otherwise):

$116 billion: New payroll tax credit of $400 per worker and $800 per couple in 2009 and 2010.
$14 billion: Expanded college credit
$4.3 billion: Home energy credit

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Bush isn't running for re-election.

I'm only talking about Bush because you posited that this is something DIFFERENT Obama is doing to skew the numbers. It is not. It is the same measurement using the same data collected the same way.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Of course unemployment is up - a lot of jobs were lost before Obama took office, a lot were lost after.

We know this recession is directly traceable to fiscal mismanagement openly endorsed during George Jr's watch. We know the same mismanagement in the 1920s to enrich the rich resulted in a stock market crash in 1929 and massive job losses four years later - 1933.

We know the same type mismanagement and time scale resulted in massive job losses that also take years to recover. The problems in 1929 and 2008 are similar. History says these problems will take almost ten years to resolve.

We also know that other mismanagement (ie housing, Mission Accomplished) are being paid for today with unemployment and lower living standards - as economics takes the well deserved and predicted revenge. We also know another rock has yet to fall - pension funds. During the previous decade, companies such as GM intentionally shorted their pension funds to use that money as profits. Because GM was selling products that cost more to build than the selling price. When does the pension fund debacle hit? Even GM declares a record profit while ignoring their record pension fund deficits. We have yet to get through the housing fiasco. Are just beginning to pay for a lie called Mission Accomplished. And have yet to start paying for another fiasco created by the American 2003 surrender in Afghanistan.

Also pending may be expenses since two countries need nuclear weapons. Because a mental midget defined an Axis of Evil. Another legacy.

Despite all this, the economy continues to grow. Even American international relations are finally on an upswing. Rather amazing - unless you happened to be the fewer who are doing most of the work. Then the word ‘tired’ might apply.

[classicman]

Oye. Seriously, how many times are you going to reword the same thing and/or quote yourself as a reference and post it into every marginally applicable thread?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Ibram

THIS, merc, is a straw man. --snip-- Your argument, or at least your link's argument, is that Obama is actively manipulating the numbers, in a way that is dishonest and, more importantly, specific to his administration to make the situation look better than it is.

Ibram, that is mercy's argument. and for him it is true. "you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts", I'm sure you've heard that one. This kiind of stuff represents "facts" for mercy, and supports his opinion, widely and loudly stated that Obama is the ruin of America. It is for him.

It is for a lot of people, people who've just made up their minds. You know some, we all know some. Hell, sometimes I'm some.

Originally Posted by Ibram

That. Is. Flat. Out. False. --snip

Not for mercy; it is useful to keep this in mind when communicating with him.

Originally Posted by Ibram

I'm only talking about Bush because you posited that this is something DIFFERENT Obama is doing to skew the numbers. It is not. It is the same measurement using the same data collected the same way.

this is a rather pointless attempt to rebut his argument, as though his attempt to persuade you could be turned around and you could persuade him with a better argument. He's not trying to persuade you. He's just spouting off what he thinks is important. There's no dialog here, that's a mistake I frequently make when engaging him, and you're repeating my mistake.

A dialog means we take turns talking and take turns listening. Yeah... not happenin.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Lets look at the U3 numbers under Bush and then under Obama and see if there is a difference.

Originally Posted by classicman

OK From your link: We'll use the U-3 (Official)Unemployment Rate

Bush started with 4.0% and when he left it was 7.3% -------+3.1%
Obama started with 7.8% (yep it went up a full 1/2% in one month!)
and continued to rise for 10 months.
and it is currently 8.3% ----------------------------------------+0.5%
Bush's unemployment increase was 6x worse than Obama

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again from your link: We'll use the U-6 this time
Bush Start 7.1 ----- End 13.5 -----------------------------+6.4%
Obama Start 14.2 - End 15.1------------------------------+0.9%
And Again
Bush's unemployment increase was MORE THAN 6x worse than Obama

Now I ask you ... What is YOUR point?

See if your Am thinker has anything cogent to dispel these facts. Ya know what, don't waste your time. If he did, he would be manipulating the data to suit his own agenda.

I'm patiently waiting... regardless of BigV's logical post.

[ZenGum]

Does anyone take anything Merc says seriously anymore? I stopped doing that that ages ago.

[Griff]

I don't think so. I think he's a plant by the Obama administration to make all opposition look nutty.