societal advances smackdown (0-1750 AD vs 1751 AD- present) - Page 3

classicman · 03-16-2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

And what exactly did those batteries supply power to?

Apparently there was no other way that we could figure out how they supplied light inside the pyramids. Although it has been also speculated that these batteries were used to electroplate silver or other jewelry.

Battery

Assumptive lightbulb

Reproduction of bulb

SteveDallas · 03-15-2009, 08:25 AM

The answer isn't self-evident to me. If you asked me what was more important to me, a case of nails or my house, it'd be my house.

But the house couldn't have been built without nails.

On the other hand, would it be possible to build houses if nails had never been invented? Sure.

On the other hand, the question is "societal advances." We've been talking science and technology. I wouldn't want to exclude other issues (like in UT's list). So, you want to argue the Magna Carta vs. the United States Constitution? Bleah. No matter what example you pick, we got here by a specific route, in a specific sequence of developments. The oldest child will always feel ignored in favor of the youngest, and vice versa.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-15-2009, 11:38 AM

Maybe we could sum the good uses of logarithms, and then the bad uses of logarithms, to see if they were an asset or curse.

skysidhe · 03-15-2009, 11:44 AM

Post-1750

advances in medicine

I might have missed it on UT 's list.

DanaC · 03-15-2009, 11:56 AM

Post-1750: dentistry.

Undertoad · 03-15-2009, 02:00 PM

Wikipedia's world population figures

It boggles the mind in many ways.

World population in 1750: 791,000,000
World population in 1900: 1,650,000,000
World population in 1950: 2,518,629,000
World population today: 6,706,993,000

The REAL smackdown:

During all that time most of the population has been in Asia. Long before 1750, all of Asia contained more people than the US does today. It took all of Europe until 1950 (apx.) to reach all of Asia's population in 1750.

But when you look at where the discoveries took place... the pre-1750 discoveries are mostly eastern, where the people were; but not a single one of the post-1750 discoveries are Asian. When it comes to discoveries per population, Britain in particular was overpulling its weight for a long time; so, too, the US as of recent.

What nature of the cultures drives this? And what if, through globalization, those natures are taught and shared just a little more?

classicman · 03-15-2009, 04:15 PM

.. or that Baghdad had organic batteries as well. If they did have these advances, what happened to them? Why were they "lost" for so long?

Clodfobble · 03-15-2009, 04:37 PM

I agree with UT, it takes a certain personality type (on an individual level) and culture (on a larger level) to desire innovation and advancement. I don't know that these technologies were "lost" so much as they were willfully ignored. There is evidence that many Native American tribes understood the concept of the wheel, demonstrated mostly in children's toys. But there were (apparently) no attempts to develop this knowledge into something useful.

sugarpop · 03-15-2009, 09:53 PM

WOW. I am completely stunned that no one here realizes exactly how innovative and complex some ancient cultures were, even by our standards today. Jesus. Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing. They developed astonomy, mathematics, chemistry, indoor plumbing, irrigation, agriculture, writing, philosophy, logic, the arts, weapons, shit, the Chinese invented gun powder over a thousand years ago. The ancient Greeks practiced skilled medicine and surgery, and knew all about anatomy. If something drastic happened and we lost all our "advanced technology," we would be completely lost. I don't believe we could recreate ANY of the pyramids today to the mathematical and atronomical exactness that the ancients built them, if we had to do it without any of our advanced technology. We don't even know HOW they did it. So we have computers and cars and airplanes and Wall Street, big fucking deal.

*shakes head*

Undertoad · 03-15-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

So we have computers

Now wait just a minute... I used to have to be annoyed by people locally, but now I can be annoyed by people hundreds of miles away. That's an advance right there, isn't it?

sugarpop · 03-15-2009, 11:44 PM

:p :p :p

and I'm not that far away... look out your window... wooooooo

xoxoxoBruce · 03-16-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing.

Bullshit, they were just the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. Their biggest shortcoming is they only shared their knowledge with a few of their fellow noble class students, that's why when the libraries were lost the knowledge was lost, except the stuff people were using.

Quote:

If something drastic happened and we lost all our "advanced technology," we would be completely lost.

Today at least the basics are presented to any kid exposed to the school system, and much more for any kid that wants it. Do you think if something "drastic" happened you would forget your trade? Why would anyone else? Public education did more to advance this country than any particular science. Reading, writing, and arithmetic for everyone, made it possible for people to operate a business and to educate themselves in any field that interested them. You know, actually use those libraries.

sugarpop · 03-16-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bullshit, they were just the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. Their biggest shortcoming is they only shared their knowledge with a few of their fellow noble class students, that's why when the libraries were lost the knowledge was lost, except the stuff people were using.

Oh I don't think so. Especially today. Even some high school graduates don't know what Vietnam was, much less would they be able to understand Plato, or the mathematics involved in the architecture of the pyramids, or the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. They probably couldn't even find Greece on a map. Please. It's embarrassing.

Quote:

Today at least the basics are presented to any kid exposed to the school system, and much more for any kid that wants it. Do you think if something "drastic" happened you would forget your trade? Why would anyone else? Public education did more to advance this country than any particular science. Reading, writing, and arithmetic for everyone, made it possible for people to operate a business and to educate themselves in any field that interested them. You know, actually use those libraries.

I'm not saying the developments we've made aren't important, or extreme, I'm saying, I don't think most of you are giving enough credit where credit is due. The ancient world allowed us to get where we are.

As far as the school system goes, I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but not anymore. We have one of the worst education systems in the free world, and even in the not-so-free world. I know someone who works in the school system here, and it's atrocious. We are like 35th and 29th in math and science in the world. We are behind some developing nations. And english? Forget about it. Have you heard the way kids speak today? And many libraries have lost a lot of their funding. Personally, I think human beings are devolving. Not everyone, but it certainly seems to me that the average person is much denser today than they were 20 years ago. Seriously. They aren't even interested in learning anything important or expanding their knowledge or intelligence. Maybe I'm just jaded, or maybe it's where I live (people out west certainly didn't fit that description), but I'm not kidding.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-17-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Oh I don't think so. Especially today. Even some high school graduates don't know what Vietnam was, much less would they be able to understand Plato, or the mathematics involved in the architecture of the pyramids, or the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. They probably couldn't even find Greece on a map. Please. It's embarrassing.

And some can't tie their shoes. So what? It's impossible to make every kid want to learn, you can only offer the oportunity... readin', 'ritin' & 'rithmatic... the important thing is to offer it to everyone, not just the rich kid scholars like in early Greece.

sugarpop · 03-17-2009, 12:24 PM

I know. And I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to point out how advanced some of those earlier cultures were. You said they just had the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. I don't agree with you and gave some examples of why I don't agree with you. You also said, They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. And while I agree with that to a certain degree, it probably isn't to the same degree that you believe it. For instance, I agree we have, over time, built upon the scientific principles they founded. I do not agree that the science and math they discovered was only rudimentary, and stuff we teach children. If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world. Some of the military strategy we used today is based on anceint principles. Our form of goverment is based at least in some part on that of ancient Rome and Greece.

03-15-2009, 11:38 AM	#3
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Maybe we could sum the good uses of logarithms, and then the bad uses of logarithms, to see if they were an asset or curse. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-15-2009, 04:15 PM	#7
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	.. or that Baghdad had organic batteries as well. If they did have these advances, what happened to them? Why were they "lost" for so long? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

03-15-2009, 04:37 PM	#8
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	I agree with UT, it takes a certain personality type (on an individual level) and culture (on a larger level) to desire innovation and advancement. I don't know that these technologies were "lost" so much as they were willfully ignored. There is evidence that many Native American tribes understood the concept of the wheel, demonstrated mostly in children's toys. But there were (apparently) no attempts to develop this knowledge into something useful. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

03-15-2009, 08:25 AM	#2
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	The answer isn't self-evident to me. If you asked me what was more important to me, a case of nails or my house, it'd be my house. But the house couldn't have been built without nails. On the other hand, would it be possible to build houses if nails had never been invented? Sure. On the other hand, the question is "societal advances." We've been talking science and technology. I wouldn't want to exclude other issues (like in UT's list). So, you want to argue the Magna Carta vs. the United States Constitution? Bleah. No matter what example you pick, we got here by a specific route, in a specific sequence of developments. The oldest child will always feel ignored in favor of the youngest, and vice versa.

03-15-2009, 11:44 AM	#4
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Post-1750 advances in medicine I might have missed it on UT 's list.

03-15-2009, 11:56 AM	#5
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Post-1750: dentistry.

03-15-2009, 02:00 PM	#6
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Wikipedia's world population figures It boggles the mind in many ways. World population in 1750: 791,000,000 World population in 1900: 1,650,000,000 World population in 1950: 2,518,629,000 World population today: 6,706,993,000 The REAL smackdown: During all that time most of the population has been in Asia. Long before 1750, all of Asia contained more people than the US does today. It took all of Europe until 1950 (apx.) to reach all of Asia's population in 1750. But when you look at where the discoveries took place... the pre-1750 discoveries are mostly eastern, where the people were; but not a single one of the post-1750 discoveries are Asian. When it comes to discoveries per population, Britain in particular was overpulling its weight for a long time; so, too, the US as of recent. What nature of the cultures drives this? And what if, through globalization, those natures are taught and shared just a little more?

03-15-2009, 09:53 PM	#9
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	WOW. I am completely stunned that no one here realizes exactly how innovative and complex some ancient cultures were, even by our standards today. Jesus. Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing. They developed astonomy, mathematics, chemistry, indoor plumbing, irrigation, agriculture, writing, philosophy, logic, the arts, weapons, shit, the Chinese invented gun powder over a thousand years ago. The ancient Greeks practiced skilled medicine and surgery, and knew all about anatomy. If something drastic happened and we lost all our "advanced technology," we would be completely lost. I don't believe we could recreate ANY of the pyramids today to the mathematical and atronomical exactness that the ancients built them, if we had to do it without any of our advanced technology. We don't even know HOW they did it. So we have computers and cars and airplanes and Wall Street, big fucking deal. shakes head

03-15-2009, 11:44 PM	#11
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	:p :p :p and I'm not that far away... look out your window... wooooooo

03-17-2009, 12:24 PM	#15
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	I know. And I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to point out how advanced some of those earlier cultures were. You said they just had the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. I don't agree with you and gave some examples of why I don't agree with you. You also said, They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. And while I agree with that to a certain degree, it probably isn't to the same degree that you believe it. For instance, I agree we have, over time, built upon the scientific principles they founded. I do not agree that the science and math they discovered was only rudimentary, and stuff we teach children. If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world. Some of the military strategy we used today is based on anceint principles. Our form of goverment is based at least in some part on that of ancient Rome and Greece.

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