Immigrants

[bluecuracao]

The big question is then...what is American culture?

[piercehawkeye45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture..._United_States

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

So what? let those systems collapse on a temporary basis. They will rebound. First close the borders and stop the hemorrhage.

The collapse would not be temporary. It is foolish to think one nation can be easily risen again after quintessential industries to the nation are abandoned.

Who would fill the gap? Another ethnic group? Teenagers? Or would the mainstream populous go for those under-status jobs and still have the nerve to say "those immigrants are stealing our jobs!", which are really the jobs "we" the mainstream do not desire.

[lookout123]

actually, those are the jobs we don't desire for "that" wage. all jobs will be filled when they pay a wage that the available workers are willing to accept.

[Spectacle]

I disagree, but the major industries would collapse and there would be a lasting defunct that would not be made up quickly or orderly.

[Clodfobble]

Where do you live, Spectacle?

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

actually, those are the jobs we don't desire for "that" wage. all jobs will be filled when they pay a wage that the available workers are willing to accept.

Sure, and when that happens you'll be paying $10/pound for apples.

Undocumented migrants are good for some things. If they were legal we'd have to pay them minimum wage, and that would increase costs too. /cynicism

[lookout123]

how much does the waitress make? minimum wage is set aside for that industry. you can do the same for the industries now filled with illegals. you toss the illegals, fill the jobs with those who come legally and pay them what is required to get them to take the jobs.

apples get picked. you buy them at the grocery store for a pittance more. but because the lowest level jobs are now paying more all jobs up the skill chain increase as well. that is the way it works. short term disruption for long term benefit.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Right. So it's a little silly to identify as "African" instead of "American" at this point.

Assimilation doesn't mean abandoning your old culture. It means making your culture a meaningful part of American culture. Sharing and celebrating = good. Isolating yourself among others who are exactly like you and rejecting the rest of American culture = counterproductive.

The bigger problem for me is that the term is identified with all people who live here who have dark or brown skin. It ignores the numerous people who have other origins. It ignores the thousands of white Africans who now live here as Americans. It gives advantages to many who do not deserve it. I fully respect our evil past of slavery, but I also recognize that it still goes on now, and was a LARGE part of European culture as well, not to mention the complacity of many African peoples. The term has out lived it's usefullness.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

Undocumented migrants are good for some things. If they were legal we'd have to pay them minimum wage, and that would increase costs too. /cynicism

I don't know what the fruit-pickers make. But the construction and landscaping illegals around here generally make $8-$9 an hour, which is equivalent to roughly a $10-$11 wage for someone who pays taxes.

[lookout123]

shhh. don't let facts get in the way of political pandering and scare tactics.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Our prices only seem low to you because the dollar has dived against the BPS and Euro. Our low prices have little to do with the number of illegals employed in our factories. Now those countries who have outsourced to third world nations and employed people at $1.50 an hour, that is another thing.

(You know I'm a native US Citizen, right? I've only been out of the country for two months now. . .)

You pay $.99 USD for a two liter of Coca-cola, I pay £1.75 (that's about $3.5 US). This is pretty universal grocery-wise. The dollar may be worth less in terms of other currencies, but it buys you more of the things EVERYONE routinely buys. (Some products are in near parity, but things are, as a general rule, more expensive here.)

Kick all the undocumented migrants out in a short period of time and the US would be hit with pretty severe inflation.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I don't know what the fruit-pickers make. But the construction and landscaping illegals around here generally make $8-$9 an hour, which is equivalent to roughly a $10-$11 wage for someone who pays taxes.

That's good. How much would legal skilled (and likely unionized) labor cost?

My cousins are in construction and excavation. I don't know what they make, but it is quite good money, even for the ones who work for the state or county.

Agricultural undocumented migrants make very, very little. They often have to hide out in the wilderness and fight for safe places to sleep. I was shown some documentaries of the life of these people in one of my gen-ed courses. Really interesting stuff.

[lookout123]

undocumented migrants

you can't even call them what they are, can you? repeat after me "illegal immigrants". that means they broke the law. that makes them criminals.

geez, do you call murderers "unlicensed life enders"?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

Kick all the undocumented migrants out in a short period of time and the US would be hit with pretty severe inflation.

I think we would weather that storm nicely. I say shut the borders first, then we can figure out who is here legally and how they are contributing or not.