Should taxpayer dollars be used to fund private education?

[Aliantha]

I'd love to see some research which supports your statement TW. Having done a fairly large portion of a degree in secondary education, I've read a lot of research to the contrary.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I'd love to see some research which supports your statement TW. Having done a fairly large portion of a degree in secondary education, I've read a lot of research to the contrary.

Well explain why those private schools with smaller class sizes underperform public schools? There are studies that claim smaller class size causes improvement. And studies that show just the opposite. IOW it is a wash. There is no difference correlated to class size. But it does hype more money for schools.

A correlation between percentage of staff that actually teaches verses improvement has been demonstrated. When the principle even teaches at least one class, then the school tends to perform better. But there is nothing concrete that relates class size (ie class of 30 verses a class of 15) to better performance. Just many contradictory conclusions.

Apparently, when class sizes exceed 30, then some negative trends have been observed. But that is not being discussed here since industry controversy was about classes of 30 verses classes of 20 or 15.

Again, back to the point. Private schools do not outperform public schools - once we eliminate hype and myth from religious schools and from the lying president. Which are the worst performers in math? Conservative religious schools. So we should give them tax dollars?

[Aliantha]

One of the biggest problems in education is poorly managed devolution. That is, giving management of schools to people like headmasters etc. On the one hand, they have student skills (presumably) but on the other, often little or no business management knowledge.

In Australia, education is becoming a huge industry. Schools are responsible for themselves and have to apply for funding grants. Get this! In Qld, private schools recieve more government funding than public! Families who can afford it send their kids to private schools, and poorer families have to put up with what they can get. It's a shameful situation.

[piercehawkeye45]

Parents and teachers have a big impact but the whole social situation will weigh more. I gaurantee there is the same amount of corruption in suburban schools as in inner city schools yet one outperforms the other by a huge margin. Social forces outweighs this example and there is no way around it.

tw, are you arguing my point or backing it up? We were saying the same thing.

[tw]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

tw, are you arguing my point or backing it up? We were saying the same thing.

We conflict on details. But the problems in education are the same as in GM. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Any solution that ignores that 1st commandment is suspect.

Like any business, education has plenty of room for innovation. And innovation does not come from business school 'experts'. Fundamental to all innovation - management must come from where the work gets done. "No child left behind" is so often cited by my education friends as how to destroy education. I am not familiar with the details. But their animosity to business school expert rationalization - including this so called superiority of private schools - is rather attention grabbing. It amazes me how a mental midget will somehow know what education needs when this same president has no qualms about killing American soldiers to protect his legacy; will destroy science to promote his man to Mars nonsense.

“Stupid is as stupid does". So where does this myth about private schools being better come from? Look at the intelligence of its promoter: George Jr proverbial liar.

[xoxoxoBruce]

#1 - Parents
#2 - Parents
#3 - Parents

If the parents don't raise the kid to respect the teachers, school and education in general, there's trouble from the git go.

If the parents don't keep in touch with their kids teachers, how do they know the kid didn't buy a box of gold stars at the corner store.

If the parents don't ride herd on the school board, how do they know if the money is being spent in the right way, in the right places.

Fuck that village raising your child...that's your job.

I pay a lot of school taxes. I've been paying a lot for a long time. I don't use the facilities, but I don't grumble too much because I believe in public education. Maybe a little when you get a tax break because you have spawn, but I don't, even though I spending a whole lot on those spawn.

And I more than grumble, when I see the schools wasting large sums on stupid stuff. Case in point; the high school pays consultants $500,000 to come up with a plan...wait for it.....to make the school look and feel less like an institution. That half million is just for the ideas....millions more to do it.

Maybe if the place looked and felt more like an institution, the little bastards would be better behaved.

I'm ranting, sorry.

Parents!

[Aliantha]

Hmmm...I think you could be talking out of your arse TW.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Hmmm...I think you could be talking out of your arse TW.

So you are telling me private schools provide superior education? So you are saying we should spend tax dollars on private schools?

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by tw

So you are telling me private schools provide superior education? So you are saying we should spend tax dollars on private schools?

No, I don't think tax dollars should be spent on private schooling.

Yes I do believe the long term benefits of private schooling can be beneficial to children.

No I don't support private education. I support the public system here in Australia and endeavour to ensure the longevity the system while encouraging reform.

The reason is because I believe every child has the same right to the same education. I don't think education should be granted depending on how rich your parents are. I believe it's a social issue and one that must be addressed with all urgency.

[Aliantha]

Private schools offer a better education because it has become a self fulfilling profecy. When you tell people they can buy a better education for their kids, they'll pay for it through they eye teeth if they have to. This means that private schools generally have more money and therefor better resources to aid learning.

They also offer better social capital which is really the main benefit kids get from private schooling. Believe me, the 'old boys' club doesn't start when you're an old boy. It starts when you're about 6.

So, the wealthy kids go to private schools. They create networks of friends and acquaintances while they're there and then when they take over daddy's business, they have a neat little package to go with it.

Education is not just about educational outcomes. If you believe that, you're living in dreamland.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Education is not just about educational outcomes. If you believe that, you're living in dreamland.

Every peer I believe to be a millionaire is self made and a graduate of public schools. Private school friends did well. But clearly the most successful were all public school graduates. That's not dreaming. That's hard reality.

As xoxoxoBruce notes: parents, parents .... 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

Remove hype from lying political extremists (ie George Jr), and facts remain - as even City College of NY demonstrated: public schools tend to outperform private schools. City College has a long list of Nobel Prize laureates and other famous American success stories. So now the rich or religious extremists want us to pay for their inferior schools. Sound exactly like the George Jr philosophy of enriching the rich at the expense of those who don't contribute to his campaign funds.

[Aliantha]

So is the American public going to fall for it TW?

Again, I don't believe the government should fun private education in any way. Private is private.

[footfootfoot]

I pay about $800. a year in school taxes. I don't plan on sending my kids to our local school for a very long list of reasons. If I could opt out of paying my taxes I would, because a good portion of my taxes is going to pork barrel stuff.

I seriously doubt that if people could opt out you'd see the mass exodus of students since the law requires that they be schooled. (NY law anyway) and in our state it is more expensive to home school than to pay your school tax, and you need to be at home instead of work to home school or you need to spend a heck of a lot more than $800. to send your kid to a private school.

You just won't see the numbers fleeing if opting out was possible.

What percentage of your tax dollars are actually going to things you agree with anyway? Any guesses?

[yesman065]

How bout we spend the money better to improve the public schools lessening the need or desire for privatized education? Perhaps if we actually tried to fix what is broken instead of abandoning "the 99", we would not need to have as many private schools, thereby lessening the burdon on the system.
I don't believe that one cent should be spent on private education - period. Thats why its called private not public.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by yesman065

How bout we spend the money better to improve the public schools lessening the need or desire for privatized education?

What is the goal of education? The state has goals for your children, do you?