USMC Gets it Right - Page 3

orthodoc · 11-26-2006, 09:47 PM

The Marines didn't come up with these dolls on their own; like everything else they give out, the dolls were donated. However, the Marines declined the dolls. On the other hand, if they get direct requests for the dolls, what would be the problem giving them strictly to those who requested them?

I agree that most of the gifts should be mainstream, and I wouldn't advocate giving a religious item to anyone who hadn't specifically requested it. And, as I mentioned, I personally find such a doll objectionable. I'm thinking more of any type of religious item. What about items that teach kids how to cast spells? What about Ouija boards? What about dreidels? I assume all of these should be forbidden as well?

My main point was the attitude toward Christians and Christian holy things in the discussion. Does anyone think that a Muslim would be dismayed or offended by an identical thread using 'Allah' or 'Mohammed' dolls and action figures and accompanying remarks? What about claiming that Eid al Fitr celebrations have an 'illegitimate, opportunistic veneer' of Islam? Or would such remarks be seen as inappropriate?

Aliantha · 11-26-2006, 09:52 PM

separation of church and state is what is key to remember here. The Marines are working for the state, therefor, all gifts or donations should be entirely secular.

orthodoc · 11-26-2006, 10:23 PM

I do remember, I just don't agree. The gifts aren't paid for by the government. The Marines are a clearinghouse. If they do give a privately donated religious item to someone who specifically asks for it, that isn't 'establishing a religion'. It's just not.

If no government employee should so much as touch a religious item in connection with his/her duties, should we abolish all chaplains of every sort from the military? Having chaplains of every religion and denomination represented within the Armed Forces, so far as possible, provides greater freedom of religion and expression, not less. And it doesn't establish one particular religion. In the same way, giving out donated religious items to people who specifically request that item doesn't establish one religion.

Aliantha · 11-26-2006, 10:27 PM

There is a big difference in the first part and the second part of your post.

In this case, the military is being used as a vessel to spread the word insidiously among children. Everyone on the planet is the victim of this type of marketing. Just ask the McDonalds marketing department. Brand recognition techniques are used by everyone...even the church.

The military must not allow itself to fall prey to these sorts of tactics.

Ibby · 11-26-2006, 10:33 PM

orthodoc, they DID start giving them out to people who asked for them, so stop bitching about it.

orthodoc · 11-26-2006, 10:40 PM

I already said I object to the dolls on principle - my point wasn't that they should or must be given out. The lesser point was that government can and does 'touch' religion at times without establishing a religion. My main point has fallen completely by the wayside!

Aliantha · 11-26-2006, 10:43 PM

That's fine if that''s your point orthodoc.

There is a very strong case for government and religion being separated completely. One should not impinge on the other, and that's the point others and myself have tried to make here with regard to the military giving out religious symbols.

Ibby · 11-26-2006, 10:44 PM

Yes, that IS true, which is why they DID start giving them out to those who ask!

The only PROBLEM occurs if they start giving them to people who DIDN'T ask for them.

chrisinhouston · 11-27-2006, 08:43 AM

And after the Danish cartoon issue last summer you have to wonder. If some company came up with a "talking Mohamed" doll to be fair would they be in a shit load of trouble for insulting the prophet?

I think Karl Marx was right when he said "religion is the opium of the masses."

9th Engineer · 11-27-2006, 12:48 PM

Right, a talking mohamed and allah tag team set of dolls. The allah one could be a totally featureless humanoid figure (he cannot be imaged, remember?) and I'm picturing something like the Buddy Jesus thing for the mohamed doll. You could accessorate with the 71 virgins that are the reward for your martyr action figures as well

Shawnee123 · 11-27-2006, 01:10 PM

They should give these out, too:

Spexxvet · 11-27-2006, 01:49 PM

I'm going to donate 10,000 tee shirts - they'll have the Star of David on them.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-28-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

Yes, that IS true, which is why they DID start giving them out to those who ask!

The only PROBLEM occurs if they start giving them to people who DIDN'T ask for them.

The Toys for Tots campaign doesn't work that way. They don't have the resources to be that specific. 5 year old male child = gift appropriate for a 5 year old male child, move along please. No requests.
The reason they had requests for this doll is because of the publicity.

Ibby · 11-28-2006, 06:12 PM

Therefore, they handed them out to make people go away. No harm, no foul. Yet.

11-26-2006, 09:47 PM	#31
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	The Marines didn't come up with these dolls on their own; like everything else they give out, the dolls were donated. However, the Marines declined the dolls. On the other hand, if they get direct requests for the dolls, what would be the problem giving them strictly to those who requested them? I agree that most of the gifts should be mainstream, and I wouldn't advocate giving a religious item to anyone who hadn't specifically requested it. And, as I mentioned, I personally find such a doll objectionable. I'm thinking more of any type of religious item. What about items that teach kids how to cast spells? What about Ouija boards? What about dreidels? I assume all of these should be forbidden as well? My main point was the attitude toward Christians and Christian holy things in the discussion. Does anyone think that a Muslim would be dismayed or offended by an identical thread using 'Allah' or 'Mohammed' dolls and action figures and accompanying remarks? What about claiming that Eid al Fitr celebrations have an 'illegitimate, opportunistic veneer' of Islam? Or would such remarks be seen as inappropriate? __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

11-26-2006, 09:52 PM	#32
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	separation of church and state is what is key to remember here. The Marines are working for the state, therefor, all gifts or donations should be entirely secular. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-26-2006, 10:23 PM	#33
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	I do remember, I just don't agree. The gifts aren't paid for by the government. The Marines are a clearinghouse. If they do give a privately donated religious item to someone who specifically asks for it, that isn't 'establishing a religion'. It's just not. If no government employee should so much as touch a religious item in connection with his/her duties, should we abolish all chaplains of every sort from the military? Having chaplains of every religion and denomination represented within the Armed Forces, so far as possible, provides greater freedom of religion and expression, not less. And it doesn't establish one particular religion. In the same way, giving out donated religious items to people who specifically request that item doesn't establish one religion. __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

11-26-2006, 10:27 PM	#34
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	There is a big difference in the first part and the second part of your post. In this case, the military is being used as a vessel to spread the word insidiously among children. Everyone on the planet is the victim of this type of marketing. Just ask the McDonalds marketing department. Brand recognition techniques are used by everyone...even the church. The military must not allow itself to fall prey to these sorts of tactics. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-26-2006, 10:33 PM	#35
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	orthodoc, they DID start giving them out to people who asked for them, so stop bitching about it. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

11-26-2006, 10:40 PM	#36
orthodoc Not Suspicious, Merely Canadian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,774	I already said I object to the dolls on principle - my point wasn't that they should or must be given out. The lesser point was that government can and does 'touch' religion at times without establishing a religion. My main point has fallen completely by the wayside! __________________ The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Ghandi

11-26-2006, 10:43 PM	#37
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	That's fine if that''s your point orthodoc. There is a very strong case for government and religion being separated completely. One should not impinge on the other, and that's the point others and myself have tried to make here with regard to the military giving out religious symbols. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-26-2006, 10:44 PM	#38
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Yes, that IS true, which is why they DID start giving them out to those who ask! The only PROBLEM occurs if they start giving them to people who DIDN'T ask for them. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

11-27-2006, 08:43 AM	#39
chrisinhouston Professor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,857	And after the Danish cartoon issue last summer you have to wonder. If some company came up with a "talking Mohamed" doll to be fair would they be in a shit load of trouble for insulting the prophet? I think Karl Marx was right when he said "religion is the opium of the masses."

11-27-2006, 12:48 PM	#40
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Right, a talking mohamed and allah tag team set of dolls. The allah one could be a totally featureless humanoid figure (he cannot be imaged, remember?) and I'm picturing something like the Buddy Jesus thing for the mohamed doll. You could accessorate with the 71 virgins that are the reward for your martyr action figures as well __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

11-27-2006, 01:10 PM	#41
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	They should give these out, too: __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby Last edited by Shawnee123; 09-25-2007 at 11:50 AM.

11-27-2006, 01:49 PM	#42
Spexxvet Makes some feel uncomfortable Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10,346	I'm going to donate 10,000 tee shirts - they'll have the Star of David on them. __________________ "I'm certainly free, nay compelled, to spread the gospel of Spex. " - xoxoxoBruce

11-28-2006, 06:12 PM	#44
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Therefore, they handed them out to make people go away. No harm, no foul. Yet. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

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