A Belief Question - Page 3

Flint · 11-09-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

The point that is being missed in these rather rational notions is this: True Believers *need* their God to be a conscious entity, one which apparently thinks like a human being, but has awesome super powers - an entity above and apart from The All.

I don't miss that point.

Flint · 11-10-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Flint, I never suggested that worship was connected in any way with communication.

My apologies. When you quoted my posts regarding the "communication" issue, I responded as if the actual subject the quote was being addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

...conversation would become very cumbersome if I had to explain the terms of reference for every word I used that was in common usage.

I don't wish for your conversations to be any more or less cumbersome than you desire them to be, and I hope you understand that I don't rely on your opinion of how cumbersome my conversations should be when formulating my own personal view of the universe. Fair enough?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

But common understanding suggests...

I do not accept, at face value, what I consider to be faulty or incomplete concepts simply because it is the view held by others. And, again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I wouldn't use a word outside of it's cultural associations without explaining why, and on what basis.

Elspode · 11-10-2006, 03:05 PM

This sort of thing is exactly why I try to limit my expression on the subject of religion(s) to *my* point of view. For all I know, *all* religions may be correct, given that one believes in their stringently enough.

That's why people should get their own personal Jesus, and let me get my own personal Aphrodite.

Flint · 11-10-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

This sort of thing is exactly why I try to limit my expression on the subject of religion(s) to *my* point of view.

That's all I'm doing, too. Just sharing my personal thoughts. I accept that everyone has their own view on things, as do I. When I say "I do not accept, at face value, what I consider to be faulty or incomplete concepts simply because it is the view held by others" I mean I do not accept it as far as I myself am concerned. I understand that this applies only to myself, and I have no problem accepting that other people may disagree. I do enjoy discussing the subject, and attempting to get a fuller understanding of different points-of-view, which hopefully I can benefit from.

11-09-2006, 02:10 PM

Buddhists, once we reach a certain point, don't really worry about what "happens next"... you realize you just don't have the energy to worry about it and do what you need to do to become the person you need to be now.
Plus, there is no way to know. So, you concentrate on what you have to do now.
There is no dogma of the afterlife, so one can be whatever they like, before reaching that point... most tend to be whatever their nationality was before Buddhism moved into that area. The Japanese are ancestor worshipers, the southern areas are into reincarnation, the Chinese tend to be Taoists or whatever regional "thing" they were into and the Western nations are either Christian/Buddhists or Atheists (or they adopt one of the Eastern philosophies, which always confused me).
I am an atheist.
In Buddhism there is one faith, in the altruistic final nature of the innermost being.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2006, 04:33 PM

To someone that worships. They are hoping or expecting that their prayer is heard.

Flint · 11-09-2006, 04:35 PM

That is true only sometimes. Maybe even most of the time, but not %100 of the time.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2006, 04:37 PM

The other times, too.

Flint · 11-09-2006, 04:38 PM

Many people have worshipped non-anthropomorphic things, with none of the specific agenda you describe.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2006, 04:45 PM

I don't think so, but I'm all ears.

Flint · 11-09-2006, 05:06 PM

There are people who worship nature, not as a conscious entity, and not to achieve a desired outcome by communicating with, exerting influence over, or receiving special favors from it. You may not agree with it, or understand it, or be aware of it, but there they are. They do exist.

Happy Monkey · 11-09-2006, 05:17 PM

I never said they expect or hope anything in return, but if they worship, they expect or hope to be heard. Otherwise it's just therapy.

Flint · 11-09-2006, 05:22 PM

This boils down to whether the definition of the word "worship" necessarily indicates a communicative act as you've described.
This is clearly your definition, but not the same one that everybody uses. From your persepctive, this is all merely speculation.

DanaC · 11-09-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

This boils down to whether the definition of the word "worship" necessarily indicates a communicative act as you've described

Y'know, you really can deconstruct language to the point where none of it means anything, or all of it means everything.

Elspode · 11-09-2006, 06:02 PM

Prayer is the conscious focus of energy, based on whatever imagery to which you are attuned. Thus, when one worships, be it Jehovah, rocks, Allah or Britney Spears, that individual is having a personal, energetic interaction with The Universe. IMHO, it is immaterial *what or who* the focus of it is, because it is the individual who is doing all the work.

So, from my point of view (which I grant is not shared by most Western religions), there *is* a reason to worship something which is not necessarily anthropomorphic, or conscious in the classical, human-centric sense.

11-10-2006, 03:05 PM	#3
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	This sort of thing is exactly why I try to limit my expression on the subject of religion(s) to my point of view. For all I know, all religions may be correct, given that one believes in their stringently enough. That's why people should get their own personal Jesus, and let me get my own personal Aphrodite. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

11-09-2006, 04:33 PM	#6
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	To someone that worships. They are hoping or expecting that their prayer is heard. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

11-09-2006, 04:35 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	That is true only sometimes. Maybe even most of the time, but not %100 of the time. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-09-2006, 04:37 PM	#8
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	The other times, too. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

11-09-2006, 04:38 PM	#9
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Many people have worshipped non-anthropomorphic things, with none of the specific agenda you describe. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-09-2006, 02:10 PM	#5
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Buddhists, once we reach a certain point, don't really worry about what "happens next"... you realize you just don't have the energy to worry about it and do what you need to do to become the person you need to be now. Plus, there is no way to know. So, you concentrate on what you have to do now. There is no dogma of the afterlife, so one can be whatever they like, before reaching that point... most tend to be whatever their nationality was before Buddhism moved into that area. The Japanese are ancestor worshipers, the southern areas are into reincarnation, the Chinese tend to be Taoists or whatever regional "thing" they were into and the Western nations are either Christian/Buddhists or Atheists (or they adopt one of the Eastern philosophies, which always confused me). I am an atheist. In Buddhism there is one faith, in the altruistic final nature of the innermost being.

11-09-2006, 04:45 PM	#10
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I don't think so, but I'm all ears. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

11-09-2006, 05:06 PM	#11
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	There are people who worship nature, not as a conscious entity, and not to achieve a desired outcome by communicating with, exerting influence over, or receiving special favors from it. You may not agree with it, or understand it, or be aware of it, but there they are. They do exist. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-09-2006, 05:17 PM	#12
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I never said they expect or hope anything in return, but if they worship, they expect or hope to be heard. Otherwise it's just therapy. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

11-09-2006, 05:22 PM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	This boils down to whether the definition of the word "worship" necessarily indicates a communicative act as you've described. This is clearly your definition, but not the same one that everybody uses. From your persepctive, this is all merely speculation. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 11-09-2006 at 05:27 PM.

11-09-2006, 06:02 PM	#15
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Prayer is the conscious focus of energy, based on whatever imagery to which you are attuned. Thus, when one worships, be it Jehovah, rocks, Allah or Britney Spears, that individual is having a personal, energetic interaction with The Universe. IMHO, it is immaterial what or who the focus of it is, because it is the individual who is doing all the work. So, from my point of view (which I grant is not shared by most Western religions), there is a reason to worship something which is not necessarily anthropomorphic, or conscious in the classical, human-centric sense. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

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