Libertarian land ownership theory - Page 3

Flint · 08-08-2006, 08:17 PM

And this...is...the main part of being...Libertarian...?

I have to say...this really doesn't sound like a new idea...

Radar · 08-08-2006, 08:57 PM

Actually the root of all libertarianism comes down to a couple of principles.

1. Self ownership - You own yourself and nobody else has any claim on your body or the fruits of your labor. Our property is an extension of ourselves. We have the right to defend ourselves, our rights, and our property with any level of force needed (including deadly force)

2. Personal Responsibility - While you're free to make your own decisions, you are responsible for those decisions and can't expect others to pay for your mistakes.

3. Non-Aggression Principle - Nobody has the right to use force other than in thier own defense, or in the defense of those who hire you as an agent. This means it's never ok to start aggression against someone else, but it's always ok to use aggression in your defense. When it comes to nations, it's never ok to start wars or practice military interventionism. It's not ok to take sides in disputes, to arm other nations, to use our military to defend other nations or to "liberate" oppressed people, etc.

Happy Monkey · 08-08-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

3. Non-Aggression Principle - ... When it comes to nations, it's never ok to start wars...

Unless you think you can take their land?

Radar · 08-09-2006, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Unless you think you can take their land?

If you start wars with the intent of taking land, or for any reason that is not defending your own nation from a direct and imminent attack, you're not a libertarian.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-08-2006, 10:32 PM

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or in the defense of those who hire you as an agent.

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It's not ok to take sides in disputes, to arm other nations

So individuals can be hired but not nations?

Griff · 08-09-2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So individuals can be hired but not nations?

Yes. You can't hire a nation because that is an act of aggression against the citizens and soldiers of that nation. Their resources and lives will be claimed by the government you've hired. Generally, libertarians acknowlege the right of the nation to defend itself but do not extend that right to defending so-called allies. (Besides whose constitution has our military personel sworn to uphold and protect?) Radar is acknowleging the reality that the US will defend Israel but that reality does not fit in libertarian theory.

Radar · 08-09-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

Yes. You can't hire a nation because that is an act of aggression against the citizens and soldiers of that nation. Their resources and lives will be claimed by the government you've hired. Generally, libertarians acknowlege the right of the nation to defend itself but do not extend that right to defending so-called allies. (Besides whose constitution has our military personel sworn to uphold and protect?) Radar is acknowleging the reality that the US will defend Israel but that reality does not fit in libertarian theory.

Griff gets it. I don't think America should take any side in this or any other foreign dispute, or send any money OR WEAPONS to any other country in foreign aid.

Radar · 08-09-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

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or in the defense of those who hire you as an agent.

HTML Code:

It's not ok to take sides in disputes, to arm other nations

So individuals can be hired but not nations?

That's right. Private individuals can appoint other private individuals as protectors, but since the military is paid for by ALL citizens, it's illigitimate to use a military to defend another nation. For instance, let's say Italy and Ireland went to war for some reason (Italy would lose) and the American military joined in the dispute on one side or the other.

If the military helped the Italians, all of the Irish people in America would be paying to murder their own families despite their own wishes, and vice versa if the situation were turned around.

The only time war is legitimate is when your own country is directly attacked BY ANOTHER COUNTRY, and even then, only when war is formally declared, and then only against the nation who attacked you.

Starting wars is also the ultimate act of aggression, and it unnecessarily places the lives of Americans in danger, and it violates the U.S. Constitution.

Undertoad · 08-09-2006, 11:24 AM

Yeah, I think we've done this one before.

If I shoot my high-powered rifle on my land, and the bullet enters your house through a wall, missing your head by an inch, am I responsible for anything other than repairing the hole?

glatt · 08-09-2006, 11:34 AM

And what if the windows are open? Let's say I shoot a bullet with my high powered rifle through one open window, past your forehead, then next to your wife's ear, and just miss the top of your kid's head before exiting through the other open window and landing in a lake down the street, am I all cool as far as libertarians go?

Kitsune · 08-09-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

And what if the windows are open? Let's say I shoot a bullet with my high powered rifle through one open window, past your forehead, then next to your wife's ear, and just miss the top of your kid's head before exiting through the other open window and landing in a lake down the street, am I all cool as far as libertarians go?

No -- the owner of that lake is going to require compensation for introducing lead into his water supply.

glatt · 08-09-2006, 11:42 AM

I forgot to mention that I own the lake.

Radar · 08-09-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

And what if the windows are open? Let's say I shoot a bullet with my high powered rifle through one open window, past your forehead, then next to your wife's ear, and just miss the top of your kid's head before exiting through the other open window and landing in a lake down the street, am I all cool as far as libertarians go?

As far as libertarians go, we believe you have the right to do anything you want as long as your actions don't physically harm or endanger non-consenting others or their property, or infringe upon their rights.

Merely pointing a high powered rifle through your window in the direction of other people is an assault. It is a crime as it endangers the person, property, or rights of a non-consenting other. The person with the rifle should do serious jail time.

Kitsune · 08-09-2006, 11:48 AM

Really? That's a damn fine shootin' lake. You may want to consider taking the blocking house by force so you can own that property and have a clear shot.

Ibby · 08-09-2006, 12:24 PM

See, this is why libertarians don't have more power in the government.

Too many different versions, too much confusion, too much disagreement...

08-08-2006, 08:17 PM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	And this...is...the main part of being...Libertarian...? I have to say...this really doesn't sound like a new idea... __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-08-2006, 08:57 PM	#2
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Actually the root of all libertarianism comes down to a couple of principles. 1. Self ownership - You own yourself and nobody else has any claim on your body or the fruits of your labor. Our property is an extension of ourselves. We have the right to defend ourselves, our rights, and our property with any level of force needed (including deadly force) 2. Personal Responsibility - While you're free to make your own decisions, you are responsible for those decisions and can't expect others to pay for your mistakes. 3. Non-Aggression Principle - Nobody has the right to use force other than in thier own defense, or in the defense of those who hire you as an agent. This means it's never ok to start aggression against someone else, but it's always ok to use aggression in your defense. When it comes to nations, it's never ok to start wars or practice military interventionism. It's not ok to take sides in disputes, to arm other nations, to use our military to defend other nations or to "liberate" oppressed people, etc. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

08-08-2006, 10:32 PM	#5
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	HTML Code: or in the defense of those who hire you as an agent. HTML Code: It's not ok to take sides in disputes, to arm other nations So individuals can be hired but not nations? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-09-2006, 12:24 PM	#15
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	See, this is why libertarians don't have more power in the government. Too many different versions, too much confusion, too much disagreement... __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

08-09-2006, 11:24 AM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yeah, I think we've done this one before. If I shoot my high-powered rifle on my land, and the bullet enters your house through a wall, missing your head by an inch, am I responsible for anything other than repairing the hole?

08-09-2006, 11:34 AM	#10
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	And what if the windows are open? Let's say I shoot a bullet with my high powered rifle through one open window, past your forehead, then next to your wife's ear, and just miss the top of your kid's head before exiting through the other open window and landing in a lake down the street, am I all cool as far as libertarians go?

08-09-2006, 11:42 AM	#12
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I forgot to mention that I own the lake.

08-09-2006, 11:48 AM	#14
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Really? That's a damn fine shootin' lake. You may want to consider taking the blocking house by force so you can own that property and have a clear shot.

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