The Wal-Mart Problem

[Trilby]

Whatever. I don't buy Wal-mart because just going into that store depresses the shit out of me. It reeks of, of something, I just can't place it. Poverty? Maybe. White trashiness? Yeah! That's it!

[Tonchi]

Mabe it's the sight of Third World children raging completely unsupervised through the aisles, shrieking, fighting, crying, opening packages or dropping them on the floor, mauling all the toys and stuffed animals, dripping with mucus and food they are shoving into their faces? That part does it for me, but to up the repulsion factor even more, a recent survey even found SEMEN on the handlebars of a Walmart shopping cart.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Whatever. I don't buy Wal-mart because just going into that store depresses the shit out of me. It reeks of, of something, I just can't place it. Poverty? Maybe. White trashiness? Yeah! That's it!

I hit Wallyworld grocery shopping the other day thinking I'd compare prices... Prices were lower but ya talk about a depressing atmosphere.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It takes longer to fix things than to break them, so I suspect it would take longer than a day to build up the higher paying jobs that Wal-Mart destroyed.

You lost me. What jobs did Wal-Mart destroy?

The way I see it, 44,000 Californians have jobs that would otherwise be in the unemployment line and on total public assistance. And speaking of total public assistance, its interesting that California does not seem to have a problem with the children of illegal immigrants attending public schools or with illegal immigrants picking every peice of fruit or vegatable grown in the state.

Where's the study showing how much the benefits paid to illegal immigrants employed by Californian farm co-ops at below minimum wages? Where is the Cellar outrage about that? When the cost of tomatoes rises to $10.00 pound because California mandates that all migrant workers must be paid $15.00/hr and provided with full insurance coverage then I suspect you'll sing a different tune.

And where's the study that shows how the artificially high wages paid to union grocery store workers has inflated food prices to the extent that workers making $9.00/hr have to go on food stamps to feed their families?

I read the study over and while the facts within it appear to be reasonable, I don't understand what the study is intended to prove. It does not look at the cost to California of benefits to the 44,000 Wal-Mart employees in the scenario where Wal-Mart never opened a store in the state who were presumably either unemployed or making even less? It does not look at the benefit to everyone who shops there of the lower cost of the same basket of goods purchased at a union store. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the unions funded this study.

The minimum wage in CA is 6.75/hr. Wal-Mart pays over $9.00 per hour. And I can't imagine that everyone in CA earning minimum wage has full health insurance coverage.

I guess my reaction to the study is so what? And who's behind it?

[keryx]

Mr Fargon posted the truth. While we buy from Wal-mart, we do not buy everything we consume from there, or do all our business there. We never buy fresh meat products there, as the grocery store chain in town offers better quality and variety for a better price. We also prefer to get our pictures developed at the photography store (for less money!), buy chocolates and nuts at the specialty candy store, and buy fair trade coffee from the cafe. All these stores are located in the downtown area, which needs the economic boost. We do pay more for some items, but the quality is worth it.

Originally Posted by Beestie

And speaking of total public assistance, its interesting that California does not seem to have a problem with the children of illegal immigrants attending public schools or with illegal immigrants picking every peice of fruit or vegatable grown in the state.

You are making a pretty big leap there, Beestie. The report was about Walmart. It does not pretend to address any possible problems or attitudes about other California labor issues. The report doesn't mention anything about Silicon Valley, either. Does this mean that Californians have no interest or opinions about the computer industry?

Originally Posted by Beestie

Where's the study showing how much the benefits paid to illegal immigrants employed by Californian farm co-ops at below minimum wages? Where is the Cellar outrage about that? When the cost of tomatoes rises to $10.00 pound because California mandates that all migrant workers must be paid $15.00/hr and provided with full insurance coverage then I suspect you'll sing a different tune.

Oh, I imagine you could generate some comments about migrant workers if you cared to make a post about them. I'm sure UG and others would be happy to oblige. However, again, this was not the topic. And how do you know that we would start singing in a different key when you complain that you can't even hear the song in the first place?

Originally Posted by Beestie

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the unions funded this study.

I checked and the study comes from an institute which is a part of the University of California. Tax payers and students fund the California system of higher education, the last I heard. Naturally, some of these tax payers probably belong to unions. Some of them are probably corporate executives.

Originally Posted by Beestie

The minimum wage in CA is 6.75/hr. Wal-Mart pays over $9.00 per hour. And I can't imagine that everyone in CA earning minimum wage has full health insurance coverage.

No, I don't imagine that everyone getting the minimum wage in Cali has health insurance, either. Probably a lot of those minimum wage earners are kids working part time flipping burgers. Probably a lot of those minimum wage earners are a lot of different people doing different things working for all kinds of different companies. However, we are talking about a mega-international company named "Walmart."

Here's the most recent stats on Wal-mart's profits that I could find:

Wal-Mart Reports Record Sales and Earnings for 1st Quarter 2006
Net sales for the first quarter were $70.9 billion, an increase of 9.5 percent over the first quarter of fiscal 2005. Net income for the quarter was $2.5 billion, an increase of 13.6 percent from $2.2 billion in the first quarter of fiscal 2005.

Thats from the Wal-Mart web site. Now, either you buy into the idea of "welfare" or you don't. But if you object to tax payers footing the bill for the health care of a low income, single Mom and her kids, then you should certainly object to tax payers having to foot the bill for an outfit making such an enormous profit by importing goods from a country whose system is anything BUT free market. You can't have one set of rules for one group and a different set for the other without exciting comment from the people involved.

And, BTW, $9.00/hour puts a family of 4 well below the Federal poverty guidelines.

[wolf]

$0/hr puts them even further below it ... at least the $9 folks are trying.

[Undertoad]

And, BTW, $9.00/hour puts a family of 4 well below the Federal poverty guidelines.

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument, but now it's just something you pulled out of your ass. $9/hr works out to $18,000 gross per year and poverty is $18,850. I'm not saying it's a great life, but I'm guessing most Walmart jobs aren't the only wage-earner for a family of four either.

In order to earn poverty level for a single wage earner for a family of four, that person has to make $9.43/hr.

[Trilby]

Anybody ever read NICKEL AND DIMED? The system is set up to fuck these people over. Get over the 9$/hr issue already--try living on it.

and people are penalized for 'trying'. you know that.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument...

I can't get too specific about California's economy but common sense tells me a couple things.

Wages in CA are artificially high. Artificial because the grocery store unions have leveraged them up. Higher wages increase prices which, in turn, raises the poverty line. Additionally, California's generous state-provided entitlement programs (education and other benefits for non-citizens who don't pay into the tax system) serve to increase the tax burden disproportionately. A higher tax burden also has the effect of raising the poverty line because those who shoulder the burden must raise prices to cover the increase.

Now, Wal-Mart sees the "gap" between labor costs and price level and enters the market with lower prices and lower labor costs and makes a zillion dollars BECAUSE their lower prices enable shoppers to basically lower their own poverty line by increasing their buying power. A point conspicuously absent from the cited study.

I just think its disingenuous to single out Wal-Mart for paying below-average wages when all they are guilty of is offering a wage and benefit package that is better than 44,000 Californians had before Wal-Mart entered the CA market. And to turn a blind eye to farm co-ops who "employ" thousands of non-citizens and pay no labor tax and pocket the wage differential.

And without necessarily assuming it, I think its a safe bet to say that Wal-Mart's contribution to the GDP of California far outweighs the phantom cost the study attributes to Wal-Mart. The study was not an economic study and only looked at one element in the equation.

Therefore, while interesting, the study is basically conclusionless.

[mrnoodle]

I buy some things at Wal-Mart because it's cheap and convenient. The cheapness goes away when they have to pay someone $15/hr to push shopping carts from the parking lot to the store (a skillset that is sorely lacking at our local store, btw).

Our desire for having it all, right now, at the cheapest price we can get it doesn't mesh well with our tiny little consciences telling us that low-paying jobs aren't "fair". And our desire for stuff wins every time. "Wal-Mart shelf stocker" isn't really supposed to be the sort of job that feeds a family of four.

It seems to me that there's a different sense of work ethic these days. My dad (told by his mom -- really -- that he was borderline retarded and that all of his brothers were smarter than him) went into the Navy and got the GI Bill. He worked 2 FULL TIME jobs (that's 80 hours) while taking a full courseload at college. Mom taught elementary school as soon as my older sister was old enough to go, so Dad could drop one of the jobs. He picked industrial technology as his degree and got a doctorate (he actually wanted to be a forest ranger, but he put his family's needs first). This was about the time I entered the picture. I remember eating beanie-weenies 3 days out of the week when I was a child until dad was finally able to get a consulting job along with the professor gig at CSU. We lived pretty large then, taking trips and such, and rarely duplicating a meal in the same week. I remember many nights when he and my mom (who helped him with secretarial stuff and test grading) didn't get to bed until 2 a.m.

He retired a couple years ago after 25-30 years at the university, after having put 3 kids through college, paid off his house and cars, and not a single meal missed by any of us. Not a millionaire by any stretch, he makes just enough from investments and retirement to take a trip or two to see family every year. I have lived with them for the last several years, and my rent money sends them on a fall foliage tour or cruise of some kind every year or two. I'll still send them the rent when I get a house next year (after I've cleared up my financial problems, which are finally getting under control). Until last year, he regularly turned down speaking engagements from "the industry" that would've paid a nice 6-figure salary because he was sick of working. He'd rather live modestly than spend another year of his life going from 6 a.m. - midnight for someone else.

That's 30 years in the trenches, scraping by, followed by 35 years of good times, all from hard work.

Let's just say he doesn't have a whole lot of pity for people who work 20 hours a week at McDonalds and expect the government to cover the rest of their bills.

[mrnoodle]

edit: they weren't beanie-weenies, they were actual weiners cut in half and covered in cheese. We called it steak. I didn't eat the beans because of the little globs of fat in them. Eww.

[wolf]

Not bad for someone who was told that he was a retard.

Initiative can do some amazing things. Shame they don't seem to be handing it out by the bucketsful anymore.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by wolf

Initiative can do some amazing things. Shame they don't seem to be handing it out by the bucketsful anymore.

That feature has been discontinued. The new models come with Gen-x apathy.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That phrase used to be common and meaningful to the minimum wage argument, but now it's just something you pulled out of your ass. $9/hr works out to $18,000 gross per year and poverty is $18,850. I'm not saying it's a great life, but I'm guessing most Walmart jobs aren't the only wage-earner for a family of four either.

In order to earn poverty level for a single wage earner for a family of four, that person has to make $9.43/hr.

Actually $9.00/hr works out to $17, 280. Federal poverty guidelines for 2006 for a family of 4 are $20,000.00/year or less BEFORE taxes. You were saying about pulling something out of your ass?

No, let us hope families of 4 don't commonly have to get by on this small sum. Unfortunately, some do - especially thosed headed by single Mom's.

Yeah, Wolf, $9.00 an hour with no benefits is better than nothing. So, let's lower the bar and everyone get by on $3.00/hr - its better than nothing. What was your point?

Noodle, good for your Dad! Sounds like a hard working guy who set a great example for his kids. The Forest Service does not require a vow of povery, by the way. My ex husband was in the Forest Service and we lived quite well. I have a friend whose Dad was in the Forest Service for 30 years, raised two kids, put them through college and retired in a very upscale neighborhood in Colorado Springs. What does any of this have to do with those who lack the benefits of a GI bill to attend college? My Dad was career enlisted. He served in the US military for 30 years. We ate a lot of burgers and hot dogs, too. I got a scholarship to college, worked part time and got two Master's degrees. Had a career that I adored until I got sick with a mysterious illness that my doctors couldn't figure out and here I am. What does any of this have to do with Wal-Mart?

Oh! Health insurance! :p