60 Years Ago This Week - Page 3

mrnoodle · 08-08-2005, 03:58 PM

We always feel like we're supposed to apologize for winning conflicts. Bollocks. We saved millions of lives and years of hell by ending the war with two strikes. The weapon was horrific, and as with all war, the innocent suffered as well. But we ended it as cleanly as we could, and what's more, we rebuilt them. To steal from an unknown quotable, the U.S. is the only nation on earth that, by conquering in war, rebuilds and revitalizes the losing side to a better standard of living. They should've dropped them on December 7, 1942, and saved that many more lives and years.

I'd be for dropping one each in Lebanon, Syria, and Iran, except that it wouldn't really alter the landscape that much, and the targets would be strapping on firecrackers and hitching planes to New York before the mushroom cloud had cleared.

richlevy · 08-09-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Most neighbors don't store incendiaries on their rooves and empty human waste into the backyard.

I think a 'scorched earth' policy was a little extreme, though. Followed by a corruption-plagued rebuilding.....

Hey! I'm seeing some parallels here.

wolf · 08-10-2005, 12:06 AM

1. They weren't trying to go for the rapid version of urban renewal.

2. It's Philadelphia. of course it was corruption plagued. There would have been something wrong had that not been the case.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-12-2005, 11:09 PM

Or by Philly standards, something very very weird.

Guyute · 08-12-2005, 11:48 PM

After treating the Allied POW's the way they did, (or any others that were caught, i.e. most of China), Japan deserved everything they got and more. People can argue that "that was their way of thinking" all they want, but it was still barbaric. another 2 or 3 bombs would have REALLY taught them a lesson. I don't think any apology is necessary, nor shame. Allied soldiers were already on the home islands performing slave labour, so a prolonged military assault would have reduced their chance of recovery to nil.

Undertoad · 08-14-2005, 11:08 AM

Today Belmont Club points out the forgotten event of 100,000 Filipino civilians killed by retreating Japanese troops in Manila.

"The 100,000 civilians who died in the largest urban battle of the Pacific War -- more than at Hiroshima -- are not remembered in beautiful candles floating down darkened rivers or in flights of doves soaring into the blue sky; there is no anti-American significance to their deaths."

Elspode · 08-14-2005, 11:31 AM

I can't really stomach all of this second-guessing. As our vetereans of the conflict die off, so do our memories, apparently.

Japan was no Iraq. We were *attacked* without provocation. There was no ambiguity, no oil to be had. Whatever they got was whatever they got. An apology would be completely out of line, unless it was something like "We're sorry your leaders were stupid enough to attack us, so we had to kick your asses."

xoxoxoBruce · 08-14-2005, 03:19 PM

Right on Elspode.

I talked and listened to literally hundreds of those vets coming back from WWII and they weren't the least bit sorry.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-18-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

We were *attacked* without provocation.

That we were attacked again without provocation (despite the fact that the attacking parties can in either case point to something they will call a provocation) puts us in the identical moral position in the War On Terror as in WW2. Iraq is but one campaign in the WOT, and inseparable from it if we want Islamoterrorism to go extinct. I certainly do, but I do wonder about some of those who take exception to my views. Now why is it that I should be obliged to wonder, eh?? Terror's breeding ground is extremist social orders, and what are nondemocracies but extremist societies? Democracies never feel like they need terrorists to push out the bad and bring in the good; they aren't that rigidly structured. This is why democracies tend to view terrorist cells as criminal gangs and treat them so -- and there is much justice in that view.

It's when the cells metastasize into mass movements that one has to shift to the war paradigm. Even more so when they get used as a means of proxy war.

richlevy · 08-18-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

That we were attacked again without provocation (despite the fact that the attacking parties can in either case point to something they will call a provocation) puts us in the identical moral position in the War On Terror as in WW2.

Which is why we felt the need to attack Iraq without provocation, or, more correctly, with fictitious provocation.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-26-2005, 11:11 PM

BS, Rich. It's quite like the North African Campaign, right down to being sandy and the locals speaking Arabic and some of them being less than sympathetic.

You should remember just how harsh I am on anti-American viewpoints, and how much I believe America should win her wars. The we-shouldn't-win-this view is incomprehensible and reprehensible.

tw · 08-27-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You should remember just how harsh I am on anti-American viewpoints ...

You really should not beat yourself up so much.

Urbane Guerrilla · 09-05-2005, 11:48 PM

TW, as usual you are perfection in wrongness. I am pro-American, far more than you can manage to be if your posts accurately reflect your beliefs. I mean, dear boy, you're a leftist! Half-bright, at best. Me, I don't adhere to ideologies that make me stupid. Consequently, my kind of thinking is better than yours any day of the week, and twice over on Sundays and holidays.

"Beat yourself up," quotha!

Happy Monkey · 09-06-2005, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I mean, dear boy, you're a leftist! Half-bright, at best. Me, I don't adhere to ideologies that make me stupid.

djacq75 · 02-09-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

60 years ago, America TOLD Japan we had the bomb and begged them for 5 days to surrender or we'd use it.

What you didn't mention is that Japan offered the U.S. peace terms in July 1945 on almost exactly the same terms that eventually were accepted. The hold-up? They wanted an assurance that we weren't going to hang their Emperor.

We didn't end up hanging him anyway, of course, but in order to prove the point that we could if we wanted (i.e., "unconditional surrender"), we killed an extra 120,000 people.

Don't take my word for any of this...look it up yourself.

08-10-2005, 12:06 AM	#33
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	1. They weren't trying to go for the rapid version of urban renewal. 2. It's Philadelphia. of course it was corruption plagued. There would have been something wrong had that not been the case. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

08-12-2005, 11:09 PM	#34
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Or by Philly standards, something very very weird. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-12-2005, 11:48 PM	#35
Guyute Gamehenge Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Halifax, NS Posts: 168	After treating the Allied POW's the way they did, (or any others that were caught, i.e. most of China), Japan deserved everything they got and more. People can argue that "that was their way of thinking" all they want, but it was still barbaric. another 2 or 3 bombs would have REALLY taught them a lesson. I don't think any apology is necessary, nor shame. Allied soldiers were already on the home islands performing slave labour, so a prolonged military assault would have reduced their chance of recovery to nil. __________________ It's Really Plain and Easy To See, The Family grows like fungus on a tree.

08-14-2005, 11:31 AM	#37
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I can't really stomach all of this second-guessing. As our vetereans of the conflict die off, so do our memories, apparently. Japan was no Iraq. We were attacked without provocation. There was no ambiguity, no oil to be had. Whatever they got was whatever they got. An apology would be completely out of line, unless it was something like "We're sorry your leaders were stupid enough to attack us, so we had to kick your asses." __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

08-14-2005, 03:19 PM	#38
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Right on Elspode. I talked and listened to literally hundreds of those vets coming back from WWII and they weren't the least bit sorry. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-08-2005, 03:58 PM	#31
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	We always feel like we're supposed to apologize for winning conflicts. Bollocks. We saved millions of lives and years of hell by ending the war with two strikes. The weapon was horrific, and as with all war, the innocent suffered as well. But we ended it as cleanly as we could, and what's more, we rebuilt them. To steal from an unknown quotable, the U.S. is the only nation on earth that, by conquering in war, rebuilds and revitalizes the losing side to a better standard of living. They should've dropped them on December 7, 1942, and saved that many more lives and years. I'd be for dropping one each in Lebanon, Syria, and Iran, except that it wouldn't really alter the landscape that much, and the targets would be strapping on firecrackers and hitching planes to New York before the mushroom cloud had cleared.

08-14-2005, 11:08 AM	#36
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Today Belmont Club points out the forgotten event of 100,000 Filipino civilians killed by retreating Japanese troops in Manila. "The 100,000 civilians who died in the largest urban battle of the Pacific War -- more than at Hiroshima -- are not remembered in beautiful candles floating down darkened rivers or in flights of doves soaring into the blue sky; there is no anti-American significance to their deaths."

08-26-2005, 11:11 PM	#41
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	BS, Rich. It's quite like the North African Campaign, right down to being sandy and the locals speaking Arabic and some of them being less than sympathetic. You should remember just how harsh I am on anti-American viewpoints, and how much I believe America should win her wars. The we-shouldn't-win-this view is incomprehensible and reprehensible. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

09-05-2005, 11:48 PM	#43
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	TW, as usual you are perfection in wrongness. I am pro-American, far more than you can manage to be if your posts accurately reflect your beliefs. I mean, dear boy, you're a leftist! Half-bright, at best. Me, I don't adhere to ideologies that make me stupid. Consequently, my kind of thinking is better than yours any day of the week, and twice over on Sundays and holidays. "Beat yourself up," quotha! __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

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