10/24: Indonesian protest

[Whit]

I just wanted to commend Russotto on both having well-thought responses as well as tolerance. Alot of pure noise has been made in this and similar strings and most of us have gotten burnt out. Way to hang in there.

By the by, Jag. I'll give you credit for being the only person that I've read that posted against bombing that had ANY suggestion of an slternate action.

I don't think it'll work though. IMO Bin Laden and his ilk can not be reasoned with as they are not sane. They choose to focus attacks on civilians as an act of hatred. Attacking civilian targets to get what you want doesn't have a success record. They know this and don't care. They hate us and that alone is enough reason to kill us.

[jaguar]

There's efforts to pass them now because they think they can use terrorism as an excuse. But the government just hates tax havens on principle.

Most of the powerful anit-sentiment has been from people inside the administration - they ahve millions stored there.

Actually, Europe is every bit as bad, only a few years behind. The European Union central committee has ordered all members to pass a law slightly worse than the DMCA by December 2002.

a: I'm well aware Australia will do anyhting the US does blindly. Europe blocked the GE-Honeywell merger. Europe has blocked various highly questionalble GE trials the US let though wihtout a second thought. Eurpoe has pased laws to strengthen and garantee the future of online privicy. Not perfect, but better.

The crux of the issue is that you believe that at the root of the terrorism problem is a bunch of legitimate grievances against the United States.

And waht do you think the casue is? A bunch of complete nutters that have the suport of most of the middle east for no good reason?

Continuing on from where i left off last night.....

After going though this very thoughly with a few people the general consensus is that
a: there re two paths the US can take ,force or appeasement.
b: its irrelavent which is taken, they both have the same end.
THe key issues are loss of cultural identity in a globalised society, the nature of islam and socioeconomic differences. UNtil these issues are solved there won't be a stop to this problem. Brace yourselves for 20-50 years of living a bit like Isreal, siege.

Theoretically eventully either Islm will comes to terms iwth hte new world orde or die out, and economic diference will be smaller, if not equal. Its a very long-term macro view of it, but its hard to argue again't.

Troops in Saudi Arabia are bin Laden's pet peeve, but Israel issues are far more important, IMO. There was plenty of terrorism before the US put troops in Saudi Arabia.

I'd say both are. As you said yourself its not about removing every terrorist though any menas, that impossible, its about removing the majority. Most Palatinians i'm sure would be happy with a state, and if that was then endangered by these grousp these groups would not be so popular.


dhamsaic aww poor baby.

Every time Israel moves towards peace, someone shoots up or blows up a few more Israelis.

Same in Northern Ireland, gotta tkae the good with the bad and work though it, not bow to the terrorists as you alwasy accuse me of doing right? Not retaliate by kill a few yourself, its a self-destructive short term policy that will cost more Isreeli and Palastinian lives in the long term.

You don't have to destroy every cell. Just destroy a large part of the organization. A cell structure is good for preventing a narc or turncoat from taking down the whole organization. It's not so good at remaking destroyed connections -- because limited connections is how the cell system prevents betrayals from being fatal.

Even that is not easy, moving money around is not hard, and can be done far faster than authorities can respond. THe sheer sclae of international travel, international money moving and the relative lack of transparancy makes it very easy for peopel and monentry assets to move around. I mean fuck a ew of thsoe terrorists on that plane were known ot the FBI and wern't even being watched, i'm sure thats changed but...

jaguar:

I don't mean to stoop to your level of being personal in this discussion, but let me be frank: you have some serious growing up to do as a person.

It's humorous that you judge me a "poor baby" who can't participate in this discussion because it's "getting a bit too hard" and because I'm not "made of sterner stuff", then noting, in the same post, that you wasted a half an hour writing that. I suppose it never occurs to you that I work 45-50 hours a week, support my girlfriend and myself, have a mother with Multiple Sclerosis that I try and visit as frequently as possible (nevermind that she's an hour away, which means two hours of driving just to see her, plus the time I spend there), plus have to find time to sleep and eat on top of that - I don't have a half hour every day to respond to you. We won't even get deep into the fact that I have three houses that I'm working on fixing so I can rent them and maybe afford to pay the mortgages (2 are an hour away and 1 is 3.5 hours west) and a constant battle with the nursing home my mother stays in over the fact that a) she can't pay her bill and b) she has another bedsore. Holy shit, jag, I'm sorry that I don't want, to quote Al Pacino here, waste my mother fucking time on you and your drivel. I would gladly write all fucking day if I thought you would actually hear it; instead, the only subject whose validity you acknowledge is the fact that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs didn't kill "some million people".

I wish I felt confident that you could, as a person, respect the fact that others have far more important things to do than spend their day responding to a stubborn anti-American zealot. So pardon me if I don't respond to your mindless posts. I've not got the time to waste.

[jaguar]

dham: Soz that was a bit harsh, heck in a nasty mood today - exams start tomorrow. Obviously I didn't realise all the personal stuff, sorry for that. still ,time is not in the end the issue. I'm not gonna try and argue back that I don't have exactly a ton of time myself (heck half the time I’m posting at 1-2am here just after I finish homework before I go to bed or during/between classes) because a: that would be very callous b: Stupid, I don't have allot of time myself but its not that bad. Yet - not looking forward to next year. My point is simply rather than packing up and wandering off why not remove a little of the emotion and debate it out, see if you can win, heck its all for fun. russotto is doing a damn good job, certainly got me ducking and weaving, why not get back into it?
Stubborn anti-American troll is a bit over the top.. For a start I’m not trolling I’m trying to have an intelligent debate. Sorry for not immediately repenting my sins and totally agreeing with you when his lordship himself speaks but that is the nature of a debate where you use logical and coherent argument not emotion to bring the other person round to your point of view. If i was really arrogant i'd quote ya sig.

Rusotto ill agree whatever the US or any other organisation/goverment/company does they are going to piss someone off its a matter of how many and how pissed. At the moment its many millions in one area who are unbelievably pissed. Even an entity with the inertia of the US can try and do something about that.

Whit: you must've been writing as I was, literally becuase when i started posting it wasen't there.
In the end there is little choice to be mad, clearly there is a large call for blood, which cannot be ignored by the administration, and something has to be done in the short term to stop further attacks I’m sure we all agree. It is the nature of retaliation that is the short term issue and solving the issues the long term one.

Can we agree on that last sentence? =)

[Whit]

I do agree with that last sentance. I also think the bombing goes farther than simple retaliation though. I think there is a sincere attempt to take out the terrorist orginazation that trains as well as funds these attacks. It's the very thing you mentioned a sentance earlier a short term solution. I think it's aimed a crippling the more immediate attacks that we all (at least amongst the people I talk to) expected. It should be noted that alot of people, myself included, thought Al-Queda and related orginazations would have struck back by now with something much more effective than the anthrax campaign has been. Maybe this is a sign of success, maybe not. At least it's a directed action with a chance of success, which beats letting these bastards think they can act with complete disregard for how we will respond.

On the long term I expcet things to only get worse. I, in my daily life, hear alot more talk of getting away from the use of mid-east oil. I'm taking advantage by pushing my belief that we need to develop alternate resources. I think that as these are developed we will have more problems with these fanatics. The reason being that once we don't need the oil how are they going to make any money? Correct me if I'm wrong but alot of food is imported by various nations in the mid-east, how will they continue to pay for it? I do wish them well, but unless they start developing some effective public school systems that do something about the rate of illiteracy I don't have alot of hope that they will. Now, who do you think they will blame when noone will buy their oil and they can't afford food?

Hmm, here's hoping I'm just being cynical.

[jaguar]

You have a point...
Afghanistan is mostly funded though drugs-Herion to be exact, about 8Billion a year's worth. Arart from bio/chem attacks on the crops there is little you can do about those, the US declaered war on them years ago.

Would you agree with the idea that if one bomb is dropped for any reason other than a direct attack on terrorist archietecture its fucking stupid?

At the same time il continue with the line i took in the post before last, in the long term this is irrelavent, whether some attacks are stopped or not until the issues are solved the fact is this is not going to go away.

but unless they start developing some effective public school systems that do something about the rate of illiteracy

Interesting you say that, in Pakistan the Extreme Islamic schools are the only free ones.

You seem to be advocating a policy of Isolation, shutting borders, removing dependence of forign oil that kinda thing? Where do you think that leads? (that is not meant as a rehtorical question)

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar
You have a point...

Would you agree with the idea that if one bomb is dropped for any reason other than a direct attack on terrorist archietecture its fucking stupid?

No, it is not. Bombs aimed at those protecting the terrorists -- i.e. the Taliban and their military organization -- are not wasted either. Just bombing the terrorist training camps and other fixed assets won't do a lot of good until you make sure they can't easily set up new ones.

irrelavent, whether some attacks are stopped or not until the issues are solved the fact is this is not going to go away.

The issues are not going to be solved. There is no solution. There are multiple groups with mutually incompatible aims, all willing to do violence to anyone to achieve them.

[jaguar]

Well...
WE have:
Hamas
PLO
Hezbolah
Islamic Jihad
Al Queda

Off the top of my head
one 1 of thsoe have ever directly attacked the US or US assets.

In your mind, why do they exist? Why do people support them?

[Whit]

Actually I'm not advocationg isolationism. I'm all for dealing with people that don't burn our flags in the street. Heck I'm even willing to deal with that if they can just agree to disallow training camps whose express purpose is to develop the skills necessary to properly kill my family and friends.

I realize they may not be able to prevent it but I would expect a little good faith effort. I prefer countries that repay the money the US loans 'em too...

I didn't know that about the Pakinstan schools. Thanks for the info.

To answer your question I think they exist for the same reason as neo-nazi's, the original nazi's and dozens of other facist groups. They hate. It's easier to hate and blame someone else than it is to hate your own life.

We are mearly an easy target for their hatred. If we gave them everything they wanted they'd still hate us. And attack us.

don't forget the PFLP either.

people support them because their leaders tell them to.

their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. they lose in the end. when you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. they seem to not recognize this. blind leading the blind. the funny thing is, i used to be totally completely sided with the palestinians. "oh, israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. i would never argue that israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. i personally think they have shown great restraint - i've not once heard of israeli soldiers grabbing some palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what i saw some palestinians doing to israeli soldiers last october 13.

re: the debate and emotions and all that stuff: first of all, the "flames" in signature refers to a love interest that spoiled and is taken from a faith no more song. has nothing to do with arguing, the cellar, etc. second, i think if you read back, my arguments are quite clear and are supported with evidence. emotion does play a part in my writing, but more in the sense that i try to stir it up - human beings feel, and they should. ask any of my friends - i'm known for being able to sit back, look at all sides of an argument, and come to my conclusion. and that's what i've done here. it's what i'll always do. my frustration stems from the fact that people tend to ///assume///, and, moreover, don't seem to read what i write to actually read it. it's basic human nature to, in an argument, listen or read to the other to formulate a response instead of actually hearing them out. i get that a lot. it seemed i was getting it here. and honestly, i have no interest participating in a discussion when someone doesn't treat my ideas with the same openness and respect that i treat theirs.

i also notice that you and i end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. i'm like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!" - i know, man. i know. i have my mirror of decss up. i've contributed money to the eff. and i'll continue to do so. when someone stops me at a store and says "i need to see your receipt", i say "sure, no problem. just go ahead and let me see your search warrant and i'll show you my receipt." i wrote my congressmen to show my distrust of recent "anti-terrorism" legislation (as well as the dmca, which, unfortunately, is active in the two states that i live, those being maryland and virginia).

the threat of terrorism is a big thing though. you have to understand - i have friends that are coming over to my house tonight to watch a movie instead of going to a halloween party for the express purpose that they're afraid they might get blown up. freedoms are the most wonderful things in this world, provided you have something to protect them with. forget, for a second, the civilian deaths which, no matter how horribly wrong, are nothing compared to the freedoms we enjoy. if the terrorists took down our government, how do we protect ourselves? have you ever seen "the godfather"? the government is a bit like don corleone - it does some pretty fucked up things at times, but without it, everything crumbles. think about where australia would be without the united states. our government has set the standard. nevermind the fact that other countries know that if they fuck with australia, they're in deep shit with the mightiest military in the world. forget ideals now - you could be DEAD. or a slave. let me be quite frank and disgusting here (those who are easily offended, skip to next sentence): imagine that, because the united states fell, some other country took over australia and you became a slave, you were forced to suck cock and have large erect penises pump in and out of your poorly lubricated asshole so that the money you earned doing your deed could go to your owner. i don't know about you, but that's not the kind of life i want to be living. i want that guarantee of freedom that only a government can truly provide. you can argue all you want that the dmca and sssca & usa act limit freedoms. you're right. but if we don't stand up for what is right by eliminating those that challenge it, we stand to lose it all. that is what the government is doing right now. they are sending a message - "we will do everything in our power to keep our freedom and our life from those that are threatening to take it from us."

i could write an entire book about this. i know this is an incomplete post, and i apologize. i really need to get going. i'll probably take some time over the weekend to write a better summary on what i feel is happening here, what i feel is at stake and what i feel should be done.

in the mean time, i'm out. please do me a favor before responding to whatever i write that you don't agree with - go away from your computer, sit down for 20 or 30 minutes and think about what you've read, think about my motivation for feeling how i feel and writing what i write, and then try and respond in a constructive manner. every argument i've had on the cellar or slashdot began with someone flying off the handle about something i said instead of responding constructively. it's all well and good that you disagree with me, but when someone (not you) starts out responding with "the lack of forethought in this statement astounds me", i know that they're not looking for intelligent conversation. if they were, they'd be making it or helping me with constructive arguments instead of tossing derogatory remarks around. same way. if you want intelligent discussion, give me something intelligent and thoughtful to respond to instead of reciting anti-american propaganda you've been hearing, interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where. not that i'm saying you're guilty of this. but i do tend to get this a lot, and i'm just saying that it doesn't generally put me into a "well, this person has a valid view point" mood - or rather, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

i'll write later. this is going on way too long. i'll make sure to touch all the bases.

[jaguar]

woohoo!
Great stuff.
Know what? I agree with you entirely.
That is why I stand where I stand. Which sometimes gets confused.
The price of freedom as so often stated (and had to in my English exam today urgh) is eternal vigilance. For all its flaws liberal democracy is a pretty good system (more accurately it’s a bad system that beats everything else till you come up with something better) and I want to keep that. That’s why I’m pissed off at the US, because money is undermining these principles.

Sure, we've got something pretty good but that doesn't mean we should go, gee well, this is pretty good and leave it at that. Let’s keep aiming for something better and stop the rot setting in.

That’s why I bitch allot. I'm not stupid enough to advocate something else like communism or benevolent dictatorship, I’m just saying this, this and THIS (he says pointing a big accusing
finger at the SSSCA) is wrong, and we should do something about them instead of rolling over. Enemies from within are as dangerous as those from without.

I know your sig was talking about something else - I just like twisting stuff to my advantage, force of habit after years of verbal sparring matches =)

The reason I laid into you was that to summaries allot of conversation:
juju said patriotism is bad because it makes people sheep
you fought back
I joined juju as he dropped out of it
I said if you were a true patriot (as in support the value it was founded on) you would hate your currant government for what it was doing
You retorted with something about people dieing to establish those values (interjected with allot of capitals) which merely served to reinforce my point before dropping out of the discussion. If you'd just said that you'd written to congressmen etc...

Now..

their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. That, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. They lose in the end. When you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. They seem to not recognize this. Blind leading the blind. The funny thing is, I used to be totally completely sided with the Palestinians. "oh, Israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. I would never argue that Israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. I personally think they have shown great restraint - I’ve not once heard of Israeli soldiers grabbing some Palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what I saw some Palestinians doing to Israeli soldiers last October 13.

Firstly, Israel isn’t anywhere as near as clean as you seem to think, often innocents are shot in firefights with Israeli soldiers shooting live rounds and during the recent takeover a few towns they went down the fronts of many major streets and completely ripped the fronts off them - simple revenge. If you go back into the last few decades it’s been fucking messy on both sides, Sharon himself is a goddman butcher responsible for allot of Innocent deaths. Both sides have allot of blood on their hands.

their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. They lose in the end. When you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost.

Debatable - suicide and merciless attacks do get one message across - DON'T FUCK WITH US. I don't advocate their tactics but their grievance is real - Israel should stop building more settlements in the west back and withdraw. Fully. They are exasperating a very open wound. Tit for tat on both sides in the really destructive thing. The issue is control of Jerusalem but don't as ask me how to answer that. Peace keeping force came to mind but...

I also notice that you and I end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. I’m like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!"

There were/are two simultaneous arguments going on
a: Patriotism and B; terrorist response
I guess lines got crossed.

interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where

Rest is all okey-dokey but most of my ideas etc come from books. Try 1984, Brave New World, Communist Manifesto, various stuff on the French Revolution, Twain, and others combined with allot of debating, listening to all sorts of people, as well as personal experiences (patricianly time in Vietnam). Most of the political shit on WebPages is just hashed up versions of other stuff anyway. Heck when you get down to it its not easy to attack my basic political views, they've ben attacked and hacked down so often that there a pretty hard to hit target these days.

Onto the nature of the response, starting with Whit

To answer your question I think they exist for the same reason as neo-Nazi’s, the original Nazi’s and dozens of other fascist groups they hate. It's easier to hate and blame someone else than it is to hate your own life.

Yes...Buy WHY do they hate?
Let’s take the Nazis, between the wars there was awful economic conditions in Germany, the currency was worth, food was scarce at time - to summaries people had no money and no food. Socioeconomic conditions sum it up. Now, I’d argue similar conditions exist in the Middle East. Germany felt like it had been shitted on by the treaty after WW1, I’d say the Middle East feels the same about its treatment by the west. See what I’m getting at? We need to address those issues - and that is *not* easy before the problem will go away. Tha'ts what iv'e been argueing all along. But hat is along term issue of world-wide equality, a kind of global class-war.

Of course in the en i still blame religion, more blood on its hands than *any* government. Allot fo the stuff tw posted about emotion being needed by extremists to gain a foothold is entirely true (tips his hat in tw's direction)

One last thing: I keep hearing people go bah - anthrax letters is *that* the best they can do??/ Well gee,for buggar al expense and little risk they've scared the livingshit out of half the country, foreced shutdowns and the evacuation of congress. Pretty good effort if you ask me.

Firstly, Israel isn’t anywhere as near as clean as you seem to think, often innocents are shot in firefights with Israeli soldiers shooting live rounds and during the recent takeover a few towns they went down the fronts of many major streets and completely ripped the fronts off them - simple revenge. If you go back into the last few decades it’s been fucking messy on both sides, Sharon himself is a goddman butcher responsible for allot of Innocent deaths. Both sides have allot of blood on their hands.

Absolutely. I myself am not particularly familiar with Sharon causing innocent deaths decades ago or anything - not saying it didn't happen, but simply stating that I am ignorant of any such happenings.

However, like I was saying, Israel has shown huge restraint in their dealings with the Palestinians. I know that innocent civilians get killed on the Palestinian side, and it's no less awful that it would be if it were Israeli civilians or American civilians or Australian civilians or, yes, even Canadians (just kidding! I love Canada! No, really. Toronto rocks my socks off). But there's a big problem in the Palestinian reaction. I'm almost ashamed to admit how much time I've spent reading up on the Middle East affairs - it's probably in the thousands of hours. One exceptionally consistent thing I notice is that the Palestinian militants make a point of killing innocent civilians. It is their goal. That is a big difference, and it's reinforced by the fact that Israel, while in the process does happen to kill some civilians, specifically targets the leaders of militant organizations. It would be wholly different if Israel responded to suicide bombings by rounding up an equivalent number of innocent Palestinians and executing them. That's not what they do though. The funny thing is, Islamic justice is generally understood to be "an eye for an eye" - yet the Palestinian militants cry foul when a murderer like Mustafa Zibri is killed in a rocket attack. Or when Jamal Mansour, a head militant of Hamas, is killed in much the same manner. Or when "The Engineer", responsible for many many deaths by bombs (and, interestingly enough, the person who really started the suicide bomb trend, though they had existed before he put it to good use), was killed by a small explosive planted in his mobile phone. Islamic justice doesn't apply to them, of course.

Of course Israel isn't perfect. Iman Hiju didn't deserve to die, and it's an awful thing that she did. But I certainly understand Israel's defensive stance. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not safe to walk down the street there. Could you imagine living in that? The fear of a suicide bomber walking into the Sbarro's that you're in, or the discotheque you're hanging out at, or a fucking school for deaf children, and blowing themselves up? I would say that their desire to keep the Palestinians under control is pretty understandable - if they don't, many more of their civilians will die. And like I said before - the primary function of a government is to protect its citizens.

Unfortunately, this will probably never end until Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. That's what Hamas & Islamic Jihad & Hezbollah & PFLP & PLO & Syria & Lebanon & al Qaida want. It's what we in da bidness refer to as snafu - situation normal: all fucked up. or clusterfuck. take your pick.

Just as an parting thought: Israel was attacked in 1967, fought their attackers, won the West Bank, Sinai peninsula, Gaza Strip & Golan Heights in the fight. They later gave the Sinai back to Egypt. I personally don't see why they shouldn't build on that land - they won it after being attacked. To the victor go the spoils, you know?

Personally, I just wish that they'd all get along. They could co-exist peacefully - it's just a few people that are ruining it for everyone else.

[jaguar]

Ture.
But. At its a big fat ugly one.
THe idea beinhd random attacks on civvies is what Bin Laden said to the US: "no american will live without fear until the people of Palastine do"
Its a dangerous method and its very easy to fall on your own sword but i can be highly effective. Don't get me wrong - its still an underhand, sometimes cowardly messy way of getting your point across.

Unfortunately, this will probably never end until Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. That's what Hamas & Islamic Jihad & Hezbollah & PFLP & PLO & Syria & Lebanon & al Qaida want. It's what we in da bidness refer to as snafu - situation normal: all fucked up. or clusterfuck. take your pick.

True but iwhtout popular support thsoe groups would be severly undermined if not totally ineffective, if there was peace in Palastineand Hamas threatened that Hamas would be fucked by the Palastinians.

Which goes back to my point of these people being poorly educated on the matters that affect them. Someone tells them that Israel is evil and they should blow themselves up and become a "martyr" - they go "oh, okay, Israel is evil, I'm gonna go kill some of those evil Israelis." Of course, if someone in power was preaching "hey, look, we can get along with the Israelis. They're just people too, like us. Maybe we should stop throwing rocks at them" it wouldn't be as much of a problem. I'm not blaming Arafat or anything, but he's not doing that. He's not taking a very harsh stand on terrorism because he seems to feel like they'll never get their independent state if they crack down hard on the terrorism and make a very strong and real effort for peace. He's afraid, and rightly so, that Israel is gonna kick their asses off the face of the planet if they show Israel that they're willing to lay down their arms. The problem is, that hasn't ever worked, and it won't. "All we are saying is give peace a chance." I wish. One of the serious issues, no matter what Arafat ever does, is that a few people in power think that Israel must be eradicated, no matter what. It's these people that control the violent minority. They are, quite literally, fighting the peace process. Hamas' website states that they oppose the 1993 peace accords and any effort of peace with Israel. They want a war.

Like I said, SNAFU.

[jaguar]

people being poorly educated

Why are they poorly educated?
As i isad before, the only free schools in Pakistan are extreme Islamic ones, there are large economic nad cultural issues that come overall of this.

As for peace in Isreal - i don't thik for now its possible. One of hte truest things i heard about Kosovo was that the only way to stop it happening again is to shoot all the grandmothers(before anyone calls me some kind of sicko think about what i'm implying *please*)

It's these people that control the violent minority.

That has the spuurt fo the very angry majority, remove the majority and they become like any other timpot group - like the militas in the US - not a serious issue.

It is a matter of treating the cause - not the symptoms - terrorist is the symptom- socioecominic divied between east and west and an even larger cultural divide flared up further by culture-swallowing globalisation. (that btw is not representative of my opinion of globalisation thats a seperate thread alltogether)