It's football time again...

[Griff]

I like it when egomaniacs step in it. I didn't hear the comments that got him busted, would they have brought down a Democrat?

[Chewbaccus]

Race is the political silver bullet, Griff. One round kills anyone.

[Elspode]

Correction...race is a silver bullet that only works on non-minority werewolves. Any minority is allowed to be as racist as they wish, and it is written off as justifiable.

Racism is a one-way street.

[elSicomoro]

Eh...are you being facetious there, Ep?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Elspode
Correction...race is a silver bullet that only works on non-minority werewolves. Any minority is allowed to be as racist as they wish, and it is written off as justifiable.

Racism is a one-way street.

I'll buy that. "The (pick any minority) are running down the neighborhood", is racist, politically incorrect and not allowed. But "Whitey is holding me back" is perfectly ok.

[Elspode]

Originally posted by sycamore
Eh...are you being facetious there, Ep?

Only slightly...I could be persuaded to change my point of view if someone could show me a few examples of successfully made cases of reverse discrimination.

My standard example of my perception of the current state of affairs goes something like this:

What would happen if someone decided to start a White Heritage Week? We would honor George Washington and Thomas Edison and other pioneers of the Caucasian race. We'd have a big square dance, and serve a lot of foods like grilled cheese sandwiches and potato chips. The schools would spend a week featuring special classroom units on famous White people and their contributions to bettering the White race...and so on and so on.

Can you honestly tell me that such a thing would not be immediately labelled as racist and an affront to ethnic groups everywhere?

Yet various ethnic groups have *exactly* this sort of thing going on all the time, and it is thought to be a great thing. Why the distinction, then, when they are essentially the same event with only the recognized group being changed?

I want you all to understand that I am *not* a racist. It is really hard to be a Pagan racist for one thing. However, I get tired of shying away from inequities in our societal structure simply because it is politically incorrect to even mention them. Anyone who thinks that Blacks cannot be prejudiced against Whites, or Hispanics against Jews, or whatever pairing you wish to name, is being hopelessly naieve. Yet such prejudices generally go unacknowledged unless they are being perpetrated by the perceived "group in power" against the perceived "oppressed minority."

So, in that sense, yeah, Syc, I was serious.

[elSicomoro]

For starters, Ep, I think "reverse discrimination" is a nonsense construct. There's just "discrimination," period.

I don't disagree with you in that there are instances of the current minorities discriminating against whites. However, I would argue that there are far fewer incidents of this, simply b/c minorities already know what it's like to face racial discrimination by whites. This is probably why you don't hear of many situations involving discrimination against whites, if any. Though I do have one example for you: The black guy that went on a shooting rampage in Pittsburgh 3 years ago.

But if anything, I think you will find more examples of a) discrimination within one's own race and b) Discrimination between the various minorities (e.g. Koreans vs. blacks in LA in the '90s) than against whites.

Yet various ethnic groups have *exactly* this sort of thing going on all the time, and it is thought to be a great thing. Why the distinction, then, when they are essentially the same event with only the recognized group being changed?

Now hold up, Ep. "Ethnic" and "racial" are two different constructs. Please clarify this for me, and I'll respond further.

[Elspode]

I can't dispute that ethnicity and race are separate constructs, and I cannot think of another strictly racially-based series of hypothetical events comparable to that to which I allude.

So, we'll leave it at the most obvious comparison...if it is okay to have Black History Week, and to celebrate all things African-American, why would the inverse be racism? As you say, "reverse discrimination" is a misnomer, because discrimination (and, by association, prejudice) is bad, no matter who is fostering it, no matter what the rationale might be, and no matter how narrow or widely tossed around it is.

The only reason all of this is on my mind at all is that the bullshit from last school year with my youngest kid is starting again, and it would seem to be racially based (he was accused by a group of black kids of using a racial slur - further investigation on the part of the principal and others revealed that this was not in fact true, BTW - and that seems to me to be a racist thing for those kids to have done).

When we went to the school Thursday morning to discuss the situation with the principal, I related to her that it was apparent to me that a certain segment of her student body was participating in a culture of intimidation, and that there was a certain 'gangster attitude' being projected by this segment. She became highly offended and flatly told me that "This does not happen in this school."

Apparently, the woman doesn't spend much time looking at her students, hearing and seeing them interact with each other, because most of these kids positively *ooze* badass attitude, and it is even worse outside of school. My kid is having to bear the brunt of it, and I can't for the life of me see how that he would be targeted except for the fact that he is part of a racial minority in his school.

Comments? Because it is entirely possible that I'm not seeing things clearly since I have a kid who is constantly getting pushed, kicked, threatened and otherwise jacked with.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Elspode
So, we'll leave it at the most obvious comparison...if it is okay to have Black History Week, and to celebrate all things African-American, why would the inverse be racism?

It's actually Black History Month--February.

Whites "celebrate" their heritage every day--it's all around us. Blacks and other minorities were beat down for hundreds of years in these parts...and still are to some degree. Until recently, the accomplishments of many minorities in our history were either ignored or not given their proper props. Maybe one day we'll reach the point where blacks won't feel the desire or need for a black history month, Asians won't feel the desire or need for an Asian-Pacific heritage month, and so on. But for now, I think they're helpful, and necessary to a degree.

Rho says that a black history month (or any other month that celebrates minorities) is necessary to counteract white history, which has not always painted a pretty picture of non-whites...particularly in the way that some things are romanticized, like Manifest Destiny or Columbus's voyage to the new world.

I'm sorry to hear about your kid, Ep. That really sucks. But let's break it down a bit here:

--Is your kid the only white kid targeted at the school? Are these guys targeting white kids? Or are these thugs picking on anyone that appears "weak"?

--Have you taken your concerns to the school board or the local media?

--Do you think your perceptions might be colored because this involves your child, and you would probably do anything to protect them from harm?

I don't think you're a racist, Ep. And I don't expect you or anyone to necessarily agree with what I'm saying. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from, and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

[Elspode]

Originally posted by sycamore
It's actually Black History Month--February.

***My mistake...I should have known that.

Whites "celebrate" their heritage every day--it's all around us. Blacks and other minorities were beat down for hundreds of years in these parts...and still are to some degree. Until recently, the accomplishments of many minorities in our history were either ignored or not given their proper props. Maybe one day we'll reach the point where blacks won't feel the desire or need for a black history month, Asians won't feel the desire or need for an Asian-Pacific heritage month, and so on. But for now, I think they're helpful, and necessary to a degree.

***And so do I...but I do feel compelled to point out the automatic negative position that "being on the other side" entails. If, as we agreed previously, that racism is racism, and discrimination is discrimination, then shouldn't it follow that if a thing is valid for one group, isn't it equally valid for another? What we have in this country is a defacto state of social combat, instead of a merging of thoughts and efforts. *Both* sides in this issue suffer from the "us against them" mentality, but it seems to only be possible for *one* side to ever be guilty of any such transgression. How, logically, can that even be possible, given that such a state of mutual distrust and dislike exists?

Rho says that a black history month (or any other month that celebrates minorities) is necessary to counteract white history, which has not always painted a pretty picture of non-whites...particularly in the way that some things are romanticized, like Manifest Destiny or Columbus's voyage to the new world.

***And there you have it in a nutshell. Wouldn't it be less combative to say "necessary to promote black history" than to say "necessary to counteract white history?" The entire concept is combative from the get go, but only if white people were to promulgate a similar event would it ever be considered to be combative...or racist. And please understand, I have all the respect in the world for Rho...she was smart enough to latch onto you, wasn't she? But even an educated and articulate person such as herself is subject to the inherent undercurrent of "us versus them", or so it would appear if that was, indeed, her statement.

The whole problem with history is that it is always written from a biased point of view. But is replacing one historical bias with another a reasonable solution?

I'm sorry to hear about your kid, Ep. That really sucks. But let's break it down a bit here:
--Is your kid the only white kid targeted at the school? Are these guys targeting white kids? Or are these thugs picking on anyone that appears "weak"?

***I'm sorry that I can't answer that question. The principal said yesterday that the only thing in common with the problems that we've been having was our son, despite the fact that, in the last two cases, anyway, he was absolved of fault.

--Have you taken your concerns to the school board or the local media?

***I have to live in this community, so going to the media would be like painting a swastika on my door. The pentagram was provocative enough... :-) As for going to the school board, I will certainly be contacting them if the trend continues.

--Do you think your perceptions might be colored because this involves your child, and you would probably do anything to protect them from harm?

***Absolutely this is possible...see my closing statements in the previous post. However, my observations about the attitudes and behavior are not skewed by my son's problems. I see what I see, and what I see cannot be adequately explained by cultural differences, unless the other culture accepts that intimidation, aggressive attitude and group prevarication are valid and desireable societal characteristics.

I don't think you're a racist, Ep. And I don't expect you or anyone to necessarily agree with what I'm saying. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from, and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

***I welcome and was hoping for commentary, and specifically from you, Syc. You, of all of us, can see both sides of the fence, and I can use a friend and some clear thinking right now.

The biggest problem this all presents for me is quite simple. If I even broach the possibility that my son is being targeted for harassment because of his race, *I* am going to be perceived as a racist. Yet, how can it not be possible that such a situation exists, given that we know there is, in fact, a cultural war going on in our country?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Els, is this the same perp and posse as last year?

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Elspode
And so do I...but I do feel compelled to point out the automatic negative position that "being on the other side" entails. If, as we agreed previously, that racism is racism, and discrimination is discrimination, then shouldn't it follow that if a thing is valid for one group, isn't it equally valid for another?

I don't see things like Black History and the NAACP as racist or discriminatory. (The Nation of Islam though...that's another story.) Anyone can join the NAACP. And the purpose behind Black History Month (as I understand it) is to not only celebrate that particular culture, but to educate everyone about black history. Now, whether people want to be educated is up to them...hell, even some black folks could give two shits about Black History Month.

*Both* sides in this issue suffer from the "us against them" mentality, but it seems to only be possible for *one* side to ever be guilty of any such transgression. How, logically, can that even be possible, given that such a state of mutual distrust and dislike exists?

Well, like I said before, I think the vast majority of racism occurs against blacks by whites. Racism against whites is a rather new phenomenon in my opinion. Oh sure, it has probably gone on for a long time, but as far as becoming a real issue, that seems to be just beginning--sorta like how sexual harrassment is becoming a very serious issue. Though I do have another example of black on white racism:

A few years ago, we had a couple incidents at a high school in the far Northeast section of Philadelphia. The school is in a predominantly white area, and I would guesstimate that the school is at least 1/4 black, maybe more. (From what I understand, you can choose where to send your child for high school in the city. And given the state of some of the schools in this city, I wouldn't blame any black family for wanting to send their kid to Washington High.)

In any case, some white kid going through a "German appreciation" phase reportedly called this black kid a "nigger". Black kid didn't appreciate this, called the white kid a derogatory name and showed his lack of appreciation with a fist to the white kid's head. Prosecutors were considering a hate crime charge against the black kid, last I heard. Black community shits a brick. Why would the black kid be charged with a hate crime but not the white kid? Because he used race when punching the white kid out. (I'm not sure of what was exactly said, but I believe it was "white motherfucker.")

I don't know what happened with this case. But if the black kid was/is charged with a hate crime, I would be/am for that. It wasn't cool for the white kid to call the black kid "nigger", but the black kid should have kept his head and not punched the guy out. Or at the very least, he should have just called the guy "stupid motherfucker."

And there you have it in a nutshell. Wouldn't it be less combative to say "necessary to promote black history" than to say "necessary to counteract white history?" The entire concept is combative from the get go, but only if white people were to promulgate a similar event would it ever be considered to be combative...or racist. And please understand, I have all the respect in the world for Rho...she was smart enough to latch onto you, wasn't she? But even an educated and articulate person such as herself is subject to the inherent undercurrent of "us versus them", or so it would appear if that was, indeed, her statement.

Nah, I just said that shit to rile you up some more.

Seriously, it's all in how it's perceived. To her, it's still a battlefield out there. And that's coming from an educated, articulate black person that grew up in white suburbia with quasi-conservative parents. She thinks of counteracting white history as a good thing.

And maybe it could have been phrased more positively. But here's the problem: There has been a backlash by some who don't want to see history corrected--Cairo's remarks about an issue like that in Texas with Latinos come to mind. And I imagine the Unsolved History episodes (a Discovery Channel series) about Custer's Last Stand and the Battle of the Alamo have really pissed off some white folk. But who has written most of our history?

I think Bruce's quote in another thread sorta ties into this: "People that are living comfortably aren't going out of their way to seek bad news that rocks the very foundation of everything they know and believe."

So, until things are truly rectified, minorities are still in battle mode. The Affirmative Action case this year was just another battle in the war. It's not 1964, but it's still a war zone.

The real question that needs to be answered is this: "What constitutes things being 'okay' or 'rectified'?" Some will say that things are fine now, but I don't think the question can really be answered.

I welcome and was hoping for commentary, and specifically from you, Syc. You, of all of us, can see both sides of the fence, and I can use a friend and some clear thinking right now.

I appreciate that, Ep.

The truth is...I felt the very same way on these types of issues as a teenager growing up in St. Louis. But as I learned more about racism and other cultures, got more life experience and saw occurrences through my own eyes, it just changed me. To add to that, I learned more about my Native American heritage. And I see how it is still disrespected openly in some cases (e.g. the Washington Redskins or the tomahawk chop in Atlanta), and it just saddens me. Of course, some would say that I'm being overly sensitive about it...they're entitled to their opinion.

I'll have a party the day the Redskins have to change their name. They've already lost copyright protection on it, so that's a start.

The biggest problem this all presents for me is quite simple. If I even broach the possibility that my son is being targeted for harassment because of his race, *I* am going to be perceived as a racist. Yet, how can it not be possible that such a situation exists, given that we know there is, in fact, a cultural war going on in our country?

I would recommend talking with the parents of other white students, to see if they are having problems similar to yours. And if you see a pattern, then take it to the principal, then the school board.

Are you going to be branded as a racist? Sure...by some, maybe even by many. Fuck that...I'm assuming in this situation (demographics-wise), you are the minority. Just don't pull a Rush--"reverse discrimination" is a big no-no.

It's all in the presentation, really...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Quote Syc
Well, like I said before, I think the vast majority of racism occurs against blacks by whites. Racism against whites is a rather new phenomenon in my opinion. Oh sure, it has probably gone on for a long time, but as far as becoming a real issue, that seems to be just beginning--sorta like how sexual harrassment is becoming a very serious issue. Snip Quote

My dorm in Boston was adjacent to the Mission Hill area (slum) and contact with the residents was unavoidable. About 1/3 of the guys in the dorm were attacked physically, and many more verbally by black teenagers or men in their 20's. The unifying theme was all the victims were addressed as "whitey" or "white boy". It wasn't poverty because none of the victims were robbed.

All that was in the early 60's but the weekend after Labor Day a guy at work was killed in Wildwood for walking through the "wrong" neighborhood". Again not robbed just killed.

I don't approve but I understand how frustration builds up until you want to explode and lashing out at anyone you feel represents your unseen oppressor becomes a, maybe the, viable option.
But regardless of the reasons I'd call it racism pure and simple. It really pisses me off when they tell me that white on black is racism but black on white is backlash. Racism is racism and absolutely wrong from anyone, against anyone, for any reason.
Of course then you have to define what is and is not racism which opens a huge debate with everyone trying to gain an advantage and cover their own ass. People being people.

Now that Black people are the majority in Philly maybe things will change.

Two things set me off. One is when some black or hispanic guy says I don't like them because they're black or hispanic. No, I don't like you because you're an asshole. Race doesn't enter into it.
The other is blaming me for slavery. I had as much to do with slavery as I did with hurricane Isabel. Even if my ancestors *had* owned slaves,which they didn't, what the hell has that to do with me?

Now you know I'm a wiseguy and I take shots at everybody. But if I offend you it's me being an asshole not a racist. I do think rap sucks though.

[Elspode]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Els, is this the same perp and posse as last year?

Not the same perp, but some of the same posse.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Ok so they can't say it's just a continuence of a personal feud. Do you know what happened the that creep? I wonder if he's in the background? I also wonder how many other kids are dealing with similar shit? Can your kid fill in that info?