11/4/2002: Gay Games open - Page 3

Cam · 11-06-2002, 12:45 AM

If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.

The most recent major controversy regarding minors in sports has been the hiring of black coaches in college football. I think there are something like 4 black coaches in NCAA division 1 football. Notre Dame's new head coach Ty Willingham is black, and his hiring brought this disparity to the medias attention, and now some people are getting up in arms and planning on "forcing" the NCAA and NFL to force teams to hire black coaches. Would this gain anything? Willingham went 7-0 to open his first season I would bet that this has more to do with future blacks being hired then anything.

For any Minority to be accepted in sports it is necessary for someone in the Majority accepting the minority and giving him the chance. But then that minority has to prove himself or herself. The sad thing is that the minority probably has to prove himself as better than the majority(The greatest human flaw is our inability to accept difference).

We have no idea what would happen if a football player came out when he was playing. I'm sure some people would have a problem with it, homophobia run rampant in our society, it's a sad fact though it's becoming a lot better. However, I would also guess that the majority of players wouldn't care as long as he played hard and produced. But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.

Okay so I have a bunch of unconnected thoughts sprawled through this post but I guess my point was going to be that if gays are going to participate in the Olympics they have to go about it the same as any other athlete. If a gay athlete proved himself or herself, capable of competing and winning then they are going to be able to compete. Sure it’s going to create controversy, anything regarding change in minority status usually does. However, if the athlete proves that they are able to compete as well as any straight athlete they are going to be accepted by the mainstream in the end.

jaguar · 11-06-2002, 01:35 AM

Quote:

If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.

Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.

Quote:

But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.

There is an extremely funny french movie about a guy that is about to be fired, so he pretends he's gay so if they fire him they'll be up for discrimination, very good. Completely forgotten the name, damn.

juju · 11-06-2002, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
From what I’ve seen gay bashings now are about as common as KK killings and other extremists movements,

Maybe things are different in Australia, but in America, if you're openly gay, you can expect to be harrassed about it every single day. There's so much hatred and dest for homosexuals here that most gays just prefer to keep quiet about it.

11-06-2002, 09:30 AM

It all depends on where. I've known plenty of gay people who aren't harrassed about it every day. I'm sure "queer folk" have an easy time in places like San Francisco, too. Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme. But it's not like that all over the country.

Cam · 11-06-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.

My point was that white basketball players are not being discriminated against. There just are not that many great ones out there. I think the last great white basketball player to play in the NBA was Larry Bird, or I guess you could say John Stockton. Both of those players are great though not becuase they are more physically gifted then others(in the NBA) but becuase they worked hard. So it isn't discrimination it's just letting those who have the skills get the job.

Hockey is a sport where the opposite is happening. There are very few black hockey players, and those that do play usually find themselves met with scorn. It's a sad reality, but becuase no black hockey player has come in and dominated, it makes it more difficult for the average one to make it to the NHL.

juju · 11-06-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave
Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme.

Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you? DISCRIMINATION!

MaggieL · 11-06-2002, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.

This one comes back to haunt Jaggie, I guarantee. :-)

MaggieL · 11-06-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
I think the short and sweet of it is get the fuck over it.

Then I suggest you suck it up and take your own advice when queer folks decide to have their own events. Get over it.

jaguar · 11-07-2002, 01:16 AM

cam someone above me I forget you cited that example, I don't know anything about it I just assumed it had some basis.

I guess the kind of persecution is based on where you live, these are global gay games, not the Sydney gay games. Rural Australia is no better than deep south US, with an even more intolerable accent. Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off. The madi gras in sydney and the Chinese community here has a history of doing it, it pisses everyone off, including members of both groups. On the other hand I think the Madi Gras is a truly sweet event, I'm hopefuly going next year with a few friends next year actually, the gay games on the other hand just seems silly. I mean the masters games/grey games is for people that otherwise wouldn't have a venue for competition, the gay games seems more about a statement that gays are somehow unique and different and therefore cannot compete in the ordinary Olympic games. Well gee sorry maggie, last I checked we were discussing it. Sure its none of my damn business, sure as hell doesn't stop me holding an opinion.

MaggieL · 11-07-2002, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off.

You're missing the point of the Gay Games. Screaming "victim" would be *not* having the Gay Games. Straight people utterly control mainstream culture. Having events like this establishes (on a temporary, limited basis) an alternate space where the norms are different, where you can be gay and be out and have it not be an issue.

It's not that "gay people can't compete in the Olympics"; as was already pointed out they can and do. But when they do, if they don't closet themselves, they're asking for all kinds of trouble; they must carefully keep their gayness hidden. Which is why you'd even ask a silly question like "why can't gays compete in the normal Olympics?". (As opposed to the *abnormal* Olympics, right? :-) )

Your advice was "get the fuck over it". Well, this is *how* we "get the fuck over it". Go to the website (since you're unlikely to go to the Games) and check out the social activities; imagine what it muct be like to be there. That creeping sense of alienation you're feeling about it (go on, deny it) is a *tiny* sample of what queer folks feel in mainstream culture 24/7. Is it any wonder that they make their own spaces where the tables are turned?

And they instant they do, they're criticised for "factionalism". What a joke.

11-07-2002, 11:27 AM

I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society. Many don't feel able to just "be gay". As I've said before, it really doesn't bother me at all - I just wasn't raised to believe that it was wrong or right or anything.

And it's sad seeing places like the Westboro Baptist Church breeding hate in people - especially children. They're making the problem worse. They are the same as any other far-right bunch of lunatics - they want to keep America "uniform", without blacks or hispanics or gays or Jews. One of the defining characteristics of the United States is that we are of all races. We're the melting pot of the world. And it's beautiful and good that way.

MaggieL · 11-07-2002, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave
I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society.

So is it really the Games that disppoint you?

Or is it the society?

jaguar · 11-07-2002, 02:59 PM

missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way.

jaguar · 11-07-2002, 03:04 PM

Quote:

But when they do, if they don't closet themselves, they're asking for all kinds of trouble; they must carefully keep their gayness hidden.

I'm yet to see any evidence of this. As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?

As for dave's post i think its just the gay games remind him about society, thats always depressing. As for alientation maggie, not there, sorry. My closest 3 freinds are all bi and I've got plenty of gay and lesbian friends, while ill avoid the gay bars purely becase it pisses people off lots of the parties etc i go gay/mixed, it just doesn't phase me in the slightest, generally it tends to be more fun coz the music's better. I guess its becase i live where i do and mix with the people that i do that i don't really notice much of the discrimination, in public here its the abusers of gay couples that cop the dirty looks.

Undertoad · 11-07-2002, 03:28 PM

Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him.

I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next.

Depending on how jaded you were, it took between a week and a year for that to feeling to subside to the point where you could safely feel disdain for your fellow man.

But for a while there was no need for any gay games or segregated parades or anything else. Wouldn't it be cool if it didn't take a national emergency with deaths and destruction, to feel like post-9/11 all the time?

11-06-2002, 12:45 AM	#31
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought. The most recent major controversy regarding minors in sports has been the hiring of black coaches in college football. I think there are something like 4 black coaches in NCAA division 1 football. Notre Dame's new head coach Ty Willingham is black, and his hiring brought this disparity to the medias attention, and now some people are getting up in arms and planning on "forcing" the NCAA and NFL to force teams to hire black coaches. Would this gain anything? Willingham went 7-0 to open his first season I would bet that this has more to do with future blacks being hired then anything. For any Minority to be accepted in sports it is necessary for someone in the Majority accepting the minority and giving him the chance. But then that minority has to prove himself or herself. The sad thing is that the minority probably has to prove himself as better than the majority(The greatest human flaw is our inability to accept difference). We have no idea what would happen if a football player came out when he was playing. I'm sure some people would have a problem with it, homophobia run rampant in our society, it's a sad fact though it's becoming a lot better. However, I would also guess that the majority of players wouldn't care as long as he played hard and produced. But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes. Okay so I have a bunch of unconnected thoughts sprawled through this post but I guess my point was going to be that if gays are going to participate in the Olympics they have to go about it the same as any other athlete. If a gay athlete proved himself or herself, capable of competing and winning then they are going to be able to compete. Sure it’s going to create controversy, anything regarding change in minority status usually does. However, if the athlete proves that they are able to compete as well as any straight athlete they are going to be accepted by the mainstream in the end. __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail.

11-07-2002, 01:16 AM	#39
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	cam someone above me I forget you cited that example, I don't know anything about it I just assumed it had some basis. I guess the kind of persecution is based on where you live, these are global gay games, not the Sydney gay games. Rural Australia is no better than deep south US, with an even more intolerable accent. Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off. The madi gras in sydney and the Chinese community here has a history of doing it, it pisses everyone off, including members of both groups. On the other hand I think the Madi Gras is a truly sweet event, I'm hopefuly going next year with a few friends next year actually, the gay games on the other hand just seems silly. I mean the masters games/grey games is for people that otherwise wouldn't have a venue for competition, the gay games seems more about a statement that gays are somehow unique and different and therefore cannot compete in the ordinary Olympic games. Well gee sorry maggie, last I checked we were discussing it. Sure its none of my damn business, sure as hell doesn't stop me holding an opinion. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

11-07-2002, 02:59 PM	#43
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 11-07-2002 at 03:11 PM.

11-06-2002, 09:30 AM	#34
dave Guest Posts: n/a	It all depends on where. I've known plenty of gay people who aren't harrassed about it every day. I'm sure "queer folk" have an easy time in places like San Francisco, too. Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme. But it's not like that all over the country.

11-07-2002, 11:27 AM	#41
dave Guest Posts: n/a	I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society. Many don't feel able to just "be gay". As I've said before, it really doesn't bother me at all - I just wasn't raised to believe that it was wrong or right or anything. And it's sad seeing places like the Westboro Baptist Church breeding hate in people - especially children. They're making the problem worse. They are the same as any other far-right bunch of lunatics - they want to keep America "uniform", without blacks or hispanics or gays or Jews. One of the defining characteristics of the United States is that we are of all races. We're the melting pot of the world. And it's beautiful and good that way.

11-07-2002, 03:28 PM	#45
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him. I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next. Depending on how jaded you were, it took between a week and a year for that to feeling to subside to the point where you could safely feel disdain for your fellow man. But for a while there was no need for any gay games or segregated parades or anything else. Wouldn't it be cool if it didn't take a national emergency with deaths and destruction, to feel like post-9/11 all the time?

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