Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Now that was low, tw. What happened to 'emotion is a weakness' or whatever it is you usually say?

What was low? That MaggieL lied about indiscriminate bombing in Lebanon? Or that she lies again even about JSTAR identifying a Hezbollah rocket from a household appliance? Either way, she lied, knew she was lying, and did so for an extremist agenda. Is it low to identify lying when it happens?

[Ibby]

Oh, real smooth, edit the post to remove the bit you knew i was referring to.

For all you who missed it, it was a bunch of stuff about maggie being a brainwashed, superconservative, violent, paranoid bitch, ending with something about 'no wonder you need concealed weapons'

And tw's gonna deny all of it, I'm sure

(ps, obviously i dont believe all that, i love maggie dear, even if she is a bit different from me polit... well, okay, 180 degrees opposite me politically. Er, fine, 175.)

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

And tw's gonna deny all of it, I'm sure

MaggieL might. So why do you think I am MaggieL? My post originally responded with an insult equivalent to crap that MaggieL had posted multiple times; that I repeatedly ignored. With a first text edit, it made no sense responding to her 'brain cell' insult. So I deleted what was irrelevant to this fact: MaggieL was caught lying.

I make no apologies for catching MaggieL lying. She assumes we are ignorant of JSTARS. (Does Israel even have a JSTARS?) She claims JSTARS can tell the difference between a Hezbollah rocket and an abandoned appliance. She hoped you did not know this so as to claim Israelis were somehow moral. Meanwhile those bombs in most northern Akkar province also targeted Hezbollah - according to MaggieL. Is there a legal limit for lying?

MaggieL now claims JSTARS could tell the difference between a Hezbollah rocket and a tin shelter for now homeless Lebanese. This because MaggieL refuses to acknowledge reality - an Israeli strategic objective that demands indiscriminate bombing. Somehow JSTARS can tell the difference between good Lebanese and bad Lebanese? MaggieL again desperately trying to prove moral Israelis would only target Hezbollah rockets. Not possible without ground spotters to find concealed munitions. This time she lied about JSTARS.

MaggieL - your best strategy is to admit no side was moral and admit to Israel's failed strategy. Stop posting in defense of Israel. In this war, Israel has no defense for their actions. They were as immoral as Hezbollah. Stop trying to fight reality. You just keep getting caught lying.

[Ibby]

tw, I think thats the first time youve even come close to calling Hezbollah immoral...

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

M So why do you think I am MaggieL?

Probably because you keep telling everybody what I know. :-)

Or at least your version of it. Maybe you should stick to what you know.

Oh dear, that won't work either.

(If you think any rocket bigger than, say, an RPG can't be identified from an airborne sensor even before it's launched, you're smoking crack. Some of the rockets enroute to Hez were identified while they were still in on the ramp in Iran, and still crated. )

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

MaggieL might....MaggieL was caught lying...I make no apologies for catching MaggieL lying...Is there a legal limit for lying?...MaggieL refuses to acknowledge reality...This time she lied about JSTARS....Stop trying to fight reality. You just keep getting caught lying.

Has it occured to you that every time you tie yourself in knots to call me a liar, that it vitiates the credibility of your claim that Bush is a liar?

I didn't think so.

(By the way, I didn't say "IDF has JSTARS". I offered it as an example of the sort of thing you claimed didn't exist, to prove I was "lying again". I don't know what IDF has along these lines; they're smart enough not to brag about it. But I do know they have F-16s...and at the bottom of the JSTARS page you see the little hand-held console a JSTARS operator can use to transfer targeting information directly to the computer in an F-16. I have enough F-16 sim time to know roughly what capabilities the tactical avionics have.)

[JayMcGee]

mmmm.... I too do wonde about the IDF's wonderful spotting systems......

there does seem to a be sudden dearth of lorry-mounted cranes, cement-trucks and skip-trucks in south Lebanon..

[Ibby]

Whether they can target rockets and whether they do target rockets are two different things.

Nobody but Hezbollah can be blamed if Israel hits where they think a rocket is, and hit only civillians, because thats exactly what Hezbollah wants. They want people to think exactly like you do, tw. They want people to think that Israel attacks civillans too. That is wrong. Israel tries to hit Hezbollah, who use anyone and everyone else as meatshields.

Now, I dont think it's right that Israel seems more than willing to level the entire country to get at Hezbollah, but only Hezbollah can be blamed for the deaths of the civillians. If they would fight fair and openly, the civillians wouldnt die. Of course, they would lose badly, and there is no incentive for them to do so, of course, but... its still their fault.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

[Hezbollah] want people to think exactly like you do, tw. They want people to think that Israel attacks civillans too. That is wrong. Israel tries to hit Hezbollah, who use anyone and everyone else as meatshields.

You don't have a clue, do you? Your meatshield is classic Rush Limbaugh 'emotion laden' logic. But again references to Akkar - those cities that were chock full of Hezbollah rockets targeting Israel? But again, Akkar is the most northern province, devoid of Hezbollah, and too far to launch any rockets. Why do you routinely forget that fact? Why must reality be reposted time and time again? Why did Israel attack every Lebanese province and even Beirut Airport? To attack even innocent Lebanese civilians - as Dan Halutz decreed - "consciousness". You claim Israel was not targeting innocent people? Akkar. Word is damning - the smoking gun that says what you must ignore to defend personal biases from reality attacks.

Again, I still say you have not a clue and have not yet fully defined the point. Your extremely one sided bias made this (your) post inevitable:

tw, I think thats the first time youve even come close to calling Hezbollah immoral...

We have been discussing your (and others) biases. Biases that made it impossible for you to see your post was not true. Did you understand this major point, and why so much time was spent addressing this problem?

A Pew Global Attitudes survey taken between March and May found that 48% of Americans said that their sympathies lay with the Israelis; only 13% were sympathetic towards the Palestinians. By contrast, in Spain for example, 9% sympathised with the Israelis and 32% with the Palestinians. ...

Ibram, you are so classic of that bias as to not understand what I had posted repeatedly. Originally from zippyt:
Middle East erupts

Therein lays much of my opinion. But since others were so busy promoting half truths, lies, and an extremist pro-Israel agenda, then little opportunity remained to explore the facts.
Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

Israelis are about as dishonest and immoral as their Arab neighbors. History demonstrates that fact. Only personal biases would deny it.

Did you see that post? Or did bias cause you to only see it only as an attack on Israel? Apparently you did not see that and similar posts - symptoms of too much bias and too little grasping for reality.

Not for one minute am I politically correct - because that means lying. Blunt reality: this war was started by Israel - for many reasons provided previously. Israel could have and should have (if they had humane, responsible, decent, and moral leaders) avoided the whole thing. Israel knew damn well what Hezbollah's response would be. Meanwhile, Hezbollah's very predictable response was just as deplorable.

We are just damn lucky, again, that it did not bring down the entire region since Israel is as contemptible as Hezbollah. And if you were not so pro-Israeli fanatical, then you could have seen (and explored more about) that reality.

Most damning is this fact. Israel was so reprehensible as to also attack innocent Lebanese - the 'bomb them back to the stone age' mindset of current Israeli leaders and their agenda of "consciousness". But again: Akkar. A bias would make that reality unpalatable. Akkar is a reality you would rather not confront. Anyone decent spoke out against the Israeli 'big dics' who would have dragged the entire region into war by attacking an innocent Lebanese nation. Apparently you found as acceptable this completely avoidable war. There was nothing decent about what Israel did.

Meanwhile death rates among Israelis should have been equal to those of Arabs combatants - and many times higher. I have so little respect for both parties as to have no problem seeing thousands die on both sides - as long as death rates are proportionally equal and especially if deaths were most gruesome. However, too many innocents - such as most every Lebanese citizen - would also be victims. Even one innocent death is unacceptable. Also unfortunately, such a desirable event - rivers of Israeli and Hezbollah blood - might create what Christian Zionist extremists so desperately want - Armageddon. Just another reason why a constructive event - a field of death - instead might be detrimental.

The difference between you and me, Ibram. I have contempt for the Israel that Lukid, et al has perverted. Ask yourself, then, why a fan of Rabin's and Begin's Israel has so much contempt for today's (Sharon's) Israel. Since you don't see it, then you are not yet ready to stand up for something far more important - the human race.

Your "I think thats the first time youve even come close" comment comes from being excessively pro-Israeli. Therefore you never saw previous posts AND could never see nor comprehend a perspective that was completely different - pro-humanity.

[Hippikos]

Setting up a mobile Katyusha launching platform requires 5-10 mins for an experienced crew. Spotters noticing this activity would be highly accidentally. The real challenge is the bug-out after the launch. The IDF knows that there ain't no target there within about 15-30 seconds of launch, time taken by an experienced crew to bug out. The Hizbollah is well aware that the launch is monitored and triangulared by the IDF and that they have maps of the surrounding roads which they might use to escape. Evidently the crew is trying to hide within the next 5-10 mins., being within the vicinity of 4-5 kms.

I'd be willing to bet that the IDF is firing at targets by guess and by bad intel. and is using cluster bombs in order to cover a wide area, hoping to strike a mobile launcher. Better to have some kind of target than no target at all.

It's ludicrous to call in an airstrike with the expectation to hit a mobile launcher. It was a war crime back in Vietnam and it is now to hit a civillian town or village when it's known that the enemy has bugged out.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by tw

The difference between you and me, Ibram. I have contempt for the Israel that Lukid, et al has perverted. Ask yourself, then, why a fan of Rabin's and Begin's Israel has so much contempt for today's (Sharon's) Israel. Since you don't see it, then you are not yet ready to stand up for something far more important - the human race.

Your "I think thats the first time youve even come close" comment comes from being excessively pro-Israeli. Therefore you never saw previous posts AND could never see nor comprehend a perspective that was completely different - pro-humanity.

If YOU'd read any of MY posts on the matter, I have just as much contempt for Israel as Hezbollah. I am far from being pro-Israel. However, since I am no more pro-hezbollah than pro-israel, I can argue both sides. At the moment, I'm arguing anti-hezbollah, because they are in the wrong. I have previously and will probably in the future argue anti-israel, because they are in the wrong.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Setting up a mobile Katyusha launching platform requires 5-10 mins for an experienced crew. Spotters noticing this activity would be highly accidentally.

Or skillful. Siting a rocket launcher isn't exactly a random activity. Moving vehicles have a huge IR signature. And UAVs can cover a large area, loiter a *long* time. It's amazing how much you can see at low altitudes, even without good optics and FLIR. How much time have you spent flying below 2,000 feet? I've got 400 hours.

Originally Posted by Hippikos

I'd be willing to bet that the IDF is firing at targets by guess and by bad intel.

Fortunately what you're willing to bet on isn't of much consequence.

Originally Posted by Hippikos

It was a war crime back in Vietnam and it is now to hit a civillian town or village when it's known that the enemy has bugged out.

So...your story is it's totally impossible to spot them, but totally obvious when they're gone. Gotcha.

[Hippikos]

Or skillful. Siting a rocket launcher isn't exactly a random activity. Moving vehicles have a huge IR signature. And UAVs can cover a large area, loiter a *long* time. It's amazing how much you can see at low altitudes, even without good optics and FLIR. How much time have you spent flying below 2,000 feet? I've got 400 hours.

Pure speculation from military nerds. There are plenty of vehicles which did not contain any mobile launchers but got hit because it could contain launchers. Your constant theoretical juggling with military abberations looks interesting, but is total useless crap. The majority of the IDF bombings is randomly in the hope to hit a mobile launcher, therefore the collateral damage is huge. Figures are 1 Hizbollah fighter against 10 Lebanese civillian deaths. Whereas Israeli causalties were 3 soldiers against 1 civillian death.

Fortunately what you're willing to bet on isn't of much consequence.

My bet is confirmed by facts, see above. Your bet is just military air balloons googled on the internet.

So...your story is it's totally impossible to spot them, but totally obvious when they're gone. Gotcha.

I'm afraid all your got is air, MaggieL. Go back to my message and read again. They know they're in the area of a vicinity of 5 kms but don't know where they really are. Do you call that totally obvious? See now why they use cluster bombs to cover a big area as possible.

I've got 400 hours.

In Lebanon?

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Or skillful. Siting a rocket launcher isn't exactly a random activity. Moving vehicles have a huge IR signature. And UAVs can cover a large area, loiter a *long* time. It's amazing how much you can see at low altitudes, even without good optics and FLIR.

A-10s also have long loiter times. Scud missiles are tens of times larger, require large trucks to transport and launch, and were located in open desert. And still, not one Scud missile was destroyed ... until SAS put boots on the ground. Once boots were in the Scud box - once those A-10s had ground spotters - not one Scud got out of the Scud box.

Attacking tiny missiles with only planes - without ground spotters - and in terrain that makes concealment so much easier? Those air attacks were indiscriminate. MaggieL well understood how and why those A-10s could not find massive Scuds in open desert. But then the objective in Lebanon was defined by Israel's government. "Consciousness" - attack anyone - even innocent citizens in Akkar province. In order to claim Israelis are the good guys, MaggieL must ignore facts that she damn well knew.

Planes with long loitering over open desert could not even find one massive Scud. How then was the IDF expected to find tiny Katyusha rockets in rough terrain? They were not as even IDF pilots reported. The objective was "consciousness" which meant indiscriminate attacks on all Lebanese even in Akkar province.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Mentioning Akkar over and over makes it no less wrong and no less of a red herring.

If you google "hezbollah akkar" this thread is the #1 result.