There are no illegal immigrants in America

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

You're wrong mercy.

Let's follow your argument a bit to it's logical conclusions.

You say, The Constitution applies only to US citizens. That the Constitution does not apply to illegal immigrants. This is ridiculous on its face. By what definition and authority are these immigrants illegal then? It's pretty easy to understand what makes them immigrants. They were there, they are here.... not so tough.

But you insist on calling them illegal, implying that there's some law that they're breaking. How can they break a law that doesn't apply to them?

Plenty of people who come here are subject to our laws, tourists from anywhere. If they break a law here they are subject to penalty, and deportation. The illegal immigrants who cross the border illegally have broken laws by doing so. Just because you step foot in the US does not give you all the rights afforded our Constitution. That is where this whole thread started with me. Just because you are here does not make you an American citizen. Tourists, visitors, illegal aliens, and even documented aliens are not American citizens.

[binky]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Birds migrate.

My new years resolution is to migrate off this thread for good. I keep coming back, (it feels like when you pass a traffic accident and have to look). But no more.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Birds migrate.

Are you referring to a European or African swallow?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by binky

My new years resolution is to migrate off this thread for good. I keep coming back, (it feels like when you pass a traffic accident and have to look). But no more.

Go to rehab

[classicman]

How does a mig rate? Well they used to be good fighter jets - no?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Plenty of people who come here are subject to our laws, tourists from anywhere.

For some reason this made me think of the Danish woman who was arrested in NYC for leaving her baby outside a restaurant while she ate. The city dropped the charges and she sued and won.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by jinx

For some reason this made me think of the Danish woman who was arrested in NYC for leaving her baby outside a restaurant while she ate. The city dropped the charges and she sued and won.

Has more to do with our legal system than it does our Constitution. Good on her, hope she got rich.

[TheMercenary]

[Radar]

What's that supposed to mean? Radar Blows?!?! You bastard!

[Radar]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Has more to do with our legal system than it does our Constitution. Good on her, hope she got rich.

It has more to do with our laws than our highest law?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

Migration refers to movement, not merely natural migrations, but forced ones. The Duty and Tax refer to an imported good; specifically the slave. The importation (bringing property into America) and migration (moving the livestock...aka slaves into different states to be sold) of slaves can only apply to slaves, and not the immigration of free people.

The duty only applies to the importation, not migration. And even if we accept that slaves migrate, so do any other "Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit".

[Radar]

The clause refers to the migration (movement) of slaves or importation of slaves (bringing them into the country). It does not refer to the immigration of free people entering the country.

[regular.joe]

O.K., I'm back for more. Food for thought.

The definition of constitution in the context in which we have been using it is: the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, corporation, or the like, is governed...or... the document embodying these principles.

The document that embodies the principles according to which the United States is governed.

Principles. I'm going to include the entire compliment of definitions:

1. an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct: a person of good moral principles.
2. a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived: the principles of modern physics.
3. a fundamental doctrine or tenet; a distinctive ruling opinion: the principles of the Stoics.
4. principles, a personal or specific basis of conduct or management: to adhere to one's principles; a kindergarten run on modern principles.
5. guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct: a person of principle.
6. an adopted rule or method for application in action: a working principle for general use.
7. a rule or law exemplified in natural phenomena, the construction or operation of a machine, the working of a system, or the like: the principle of capillary attraction.
8. the method of formation, operation, or procedure exhibited in a given case: a community organized on the patriarchal principle.
9. a determining characteristic of something; essential quality.
10. an originating or actuating agency or force: growth is the principle of life.
11. an actuating agency in the mind or character, as an instinct, faculty, or natural tendency: the principles of human behavior.
12. Chemistry. a constituent of a substance, esp. one giving to it some distinctive quality or effect.
13. Obsolete. beginning or commencement.
—Idioms
14. in principle, in essence or substance; fundamentally: to accept a plan in principle.
15. on principle,
a. according to personal rules for right conduct; as a matter of moral principle: He refused on principle to agree to the terms of the treaty.
b. according to a fixed rule, method, or practice: He drank hot milk every night on principle.

So, what are the principles embodied by our constitution? Just a question. I think they can be found in the opening paragraph.

I stand by my statements earlier. General welfare is not dealing with only the defense of the nation.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Definition of the coma: the sign (,), a mark of punctuation used for indicating a division in a sentence, as in setting off a word, phrase, or clause, esp. when such a division is accompanied by a slight pause or is to be noted in order to give order to the sequential elements of the sentence. It is also used to separate items in a list, to mark off thousands in numerals, to separate types or levels of information in bibliographic and other data, and, in Europe, as a decimal point.

We've had to go into some discussion as to the meaning of these things. It's important to understand perhaps.

Notice the coma between the phrase "provide for the common defence", and the phrase "promote the general Welfare". It is no mistake later that among the powers given to congress is to provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States. Hey, two of the different things that were outlined in the opening paragraph of the document.

So, if the people elected to congress, decide to pass a law for the general welfare of the United States, and that law deals with immigration they are well with within the spirit and principle of the Constitution. The constitution is not law, it is the document that embodies the principles which formed our nation and governmental system. Congress makes the laws.

As an example, in 1974 there was a law passed enacting a national speed limit of 55 MPH. It does not specify in the constitution that congress can do that. The law was not repealed on it's constitutionality or lack there of. The law was enforce until 1995 when it was passed back to the states. Although the constitution does not specifically give congress this ability to set a national speed limit, they did just that based on the general welfare of the U.S.

[Radar]

Fighting over the word "of" didn't work so now you want to dispute a comma?

The phrase "promote the general welfare" does not grant any power to Congress PERIOD. Promote the general welfare means allowing citizens to enjoy peace and prosperity or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government. It means nothing more or less than that.

How you might ask am I so sure about what the phrase "general welfare" meant when they wrote the Constitution? Because the 1828 copy of Webster's has the phrase defined so someone won't try to twist it. Here's an actual photocopy of the entry...

http://alanchapman.org/libertyvault/...alwelfare.html


Contrary to what you're attempting to twist "general welfare" into, it is NOT a blank check for the government to create any laws it wishes and it grants no powers to the federal government at all.

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

- Thomas Jefferson

[Spexxvet]

How does diplomatic immunity play into this? On one hand, it shows that some people in this country are not subject to our laws and constitution. On the other hand it shows that to get this immunity, there needs to be a formal accepted agreement constructed.