Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[DanaC]

Dana, just where do you come off sneering and smartassing? Have you ever lived in a totalitarian society, sister? I have. I didn't like it, and count myself fortunate that I had the option to quit. The lesson it taught me was that while there are places for totalitarian organizations within a society -- armies, whose totalitarian organization permits them to function even when heavily damaged -- that it is absolutely no way to organize a nation that's worth living in.

Too many people around here have never even tried to discover this for themselves. The least you could bloody do is reread 1984.

First off brother I don't need to live in a totalitarian society in order to have a viewpoint. Secondly, I don't recall ever advocating a totalitarian society as a good place to live think you may be referring to my wanting not to live in a totalitarian world where only American values were deemed acceptable. And last but not least, I've read 1984 very recently thankyou. I could recite much of it to you verbatim. Animal Farm too. I'm a huge George Orwell fan. Might I remind you that it was a piece of fiction. Well written an with some very good points to make, but fiction nonetheless.

Of course I suspect old Georgey Boy may well have recognised his tale in our current permanent enemy and permanent war. We have always been at war with Saddam. We have always been at war with Islam. Giving up civil liberties will protect our freedom. The victim is the perpetrator. bb speak malreported Iraq rectify. Miniplenty malquoted chocolate rectify. Welcome to new speak.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

The task is to seperate the fakes from the reality.

The task: view the big picture. Do not be sidetracked - as UT would have us all do - by a staged or suspect picture. Reality is that Israelis attacked all of Lebanon including Red Cross and Red Crescent convoys. Anyone anywhere in Lebanon was threatened by Israeli attack - even in Akkar province. Notice how UT ignores that post which contradicts his speculations. A post that addresses the big picture; is ignored by hyping a faked picture as proof that Israelis wear white.

Pathetic leadership from Olmert’s government should have been obvious to every Israeli weeks ago. Those looking at a big picture would have discussed same here in The Cellar. Israelis citizens are only just starting to question; returning troops reporting poor strategic decision making. So poor that even infantryman knew it. So pathetic that Israel even attacked 90% of Lebanon that was not Hezbollah as if that would liberate two kidnapped soldiers. Oh. We forgot about those soldiers – and we forget reasons why Hezbollah exists. This again because we let minutia sidetrack us. Minuta and myths such as Hezbollah want to kill Americans AND photoshopped pictures. Clearly all Arabs are evil – when we ignore facts from the big picture.

An agenda justified by minutia; created because reality – the big picture – is completely ignored. Israeli attacked all of Lebanon – for reasons that just don’t make sense and that may bring back extremist Likud.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

The task: view the big picture. ~ big snip

I can't see the "big picture", because it's too big, too complicated, not to mention changing too fast, for even people dedicating their life to it to understand.

You think you see it but all your seeing is Cliff's Notes....and hoping Cliff sees the big picture. I'm betting he doesn't either.

People who have a life, people who work for a living, people who have responsibilities, don't have the time to dedicate to the big picture. That's why we hire people to take care of international affairs.

The stories about the faked media reports is an important caution to eye all news reports with a discerning eye.....even Cliff's.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The stories about the faked media reports is an important caution to eye all news reports with a discerning eye.

So you believe UT who insists Israelis were not attacking any ambulances. So you believe those Red Cross and Red Crescent workers were lying about being attacked? So that convoy of hundreds of Israeli attacked refugees north of the Latani River did not happen?

The big picture: Israeli attacked all of Lebanon right up to the most northern province of Akkar, for reasons that just don’t make sense and that may bring back extremist Likud. What is so complicated about? Are you saying Israel did not attack all Lebanon? Are you suggesting that all pictures of Lebanon damage are photoshopped forgeries? Are you claiming the investigation of cluster bombs used in hundreds of locations never existed?

Big picture is not complex. Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers as done previously to liberate prisoners. But this time, Israel attacked all of Lebanon for confused reasons. Details and reason why may be confusing. But a big picture is straight forward - and irrelevant to some fraudulent pictures. Israeli attacked all of Lebanon – for reasons that just don’t make sense and that may bring back extremist Likud.

Some photos are photoshopped. It happens as will always happen. Does that mean all or even most pictures are photoshopped? Not for one minute. All sides promote propaganda. Photoshopped pictures are important to Rush Limbaugh types - because fakes and frauds are promoted everyday even on your TV. That does not change the big picture: Israel attacked all of Lebanon for mysterious and confused reasons. Israeli leadership was so confused and indecisive that Olmert's government may fall.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Oh calm the fuck down, and stop accusing me of not believing this and that.

You really don't think this little shoot out in Lebanon is the "big picture", it's just a piece, but you know that. You haven't forgotten the Brotherhood, so soon. A satellite couldn't see the area the big picture encompasses.

Saying Israel attacked for "mysterious and confused reasons" just helps make my point, it's too big, too complicated and changing too fast, for anyone to understand it all.

Bringing to light any manipulation of the "free" press is important, because you can't tell the players without a program. If they're messing with the program then we have to be cautious of everything reported.

Nobody with half a brain is going to dismiss all reports and photographs, because of those faked and photoshopped ones, but it gives us a better picture of which news sources are more or less trustworthy.

[Undertoad]

{UT}who insists Israelis were not attacking any ambulances.

See how tw has characterized what I've presented; apply that to how tw has characterized the entire situation.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Oh calm the fuck down,

I asked your adult brain a question. Why did I get your childish and abusive side? Answer the question - a straight and logical question - without childish emotions. Answer the question as it was posted - logically.

Meanwhile you owe everyone an apology for posting perverted and irrelevant language, and for replying emotionally.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

See how tw has characterized what I've presented; apply that to how tw has characterized the entire situation.

A logical response is to offer corrections. Where is the fault? And why do you routinely avoid the big picture? Israel attacked all of Lebanon for mysterious and confused reasons. Israeli leadership was so confused and indecisive that Olmert's government may fall.

Instead UT posts examples of propaganda. My goodness. They advertised hair tonic on TV and it was a lie. That clearly makes Israel's actions irrelevant? A picture was photoshopped. That means those Red Cross and Red Crescent testimonies of being attacked are lies?

UT - why do you post in black and white? Why do Israelis in your world always wear white? Characterize? Show me where you once acknowledge, for example, the Israeli arranged massacre of 5000 Palestinian women and children?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Nobody with half a brain is going to dismiss all reports and photographs, because of those faked and photoshopped ones, but it gives us a better picture of which news sources are more or less trustworthy.

Those fakes and photoshopped pictures only tell us that propagandists are still alive and doing well. Meanwhile, UT denies that Israelis attacked 90% of innocent Lebanese. And that is the big picture. Why did Olmert's government think for one minute that it would accomplish something useful? A decision so flawed that it might mean an end of Olmert's government and the return of Likud. That is the big picture. Photoshopped pictures? An interesting sidebar and not relevant to what and why Lebanon (ie Beirut Airport) was attacked by Israel. That is the big picture. What Israel did to Lebanon, and questions that ask why.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

I asked your adult brain a question. Why did I get your childish and abusive side? Answer the question - a straight and logical question -without childish emotions. Answer the question as it was posted - logically.

I said...

Originally Posted by Bruce

The stories about the faked media reports is an important caution to eye all news reports with a discerning eye.

Which you completely twisted to...

Originally Posted by TW

So you believe UT who insists Israelis were not attacking any ambulances. So you believe those Red Cross and Red Crescent workers were lying about being attacked? So that convoy of hundreds of Israeli attacked refugees north of the Latani River did not happen?

Can you get it through your adult brain that I didn't say, or infer, or imply, or suggest, any of those things. I said the provable, faked media reports are a warning to be discerning of all reports. That's all, nothing more.

Meanwhile you owe everyone an apology for posting perverted and irrelevant language, and for replying emotionally.

Abusive? You ain't seen nothing yet, so don't push it.
Apology? When you trek the frozen wastes of Hell to build a shrine MBAs and George Bush, you'll get a fucking apology.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The stories about the faked media reports is an important caution to eye all news reports with a discerning eye.

To which I replied

All sides promote propaganda. Photoshopped pictures are important to Rush Limbaugh types - because fakes and frauds are promoted everyday even on your TV.

and

An interesting sidebar and not relevant to what and why Lebanon (ie Beirut Airport) was attacked by Israel.

Apparently while using four letter words, you ignored replies. Use of four letter words suggests you were being foolishly emotional during that reply. The four letter word provides no useful content other than to say you are angry – a totally useless and emotional response common to those who cannot defend their opinion.

Photoshopped and fake pictures are only propaganda - nothing more. Propaganda is not for one minute relevant to the big picture.

Of course, we also treasure staged photographs. That picture of Marines raising a flag over Iwo Jima was staged. No photograph exists when the real event happened one day earlier. Why is that 'fraud' not important? Because the fraud - a faked photo - is totally irrelevant to what happened on Iwo Jima. The fraud represents the big picture.

Worry about such trivia (fraudulent pictures) only to avoid the big picture. Hyping nonsense about a staged picture is a Rush Limbaugh technique to spin away from embarrassing reality – the big picture.

The big picture: Israel attacked all of Lebanon for mysterious and confused reasons. Israeli leadership was so confused and indecisive that Olmert's government may fall.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Those fakes and photoshopped pictures only tell us that propagandists are still alive and doing well. Meanwhile, UT denies that Israelis attacked 90% of innocent Lebanese. And that is the big picture. ~snip

If that's your big picture, your camera is too small. Either open your aperture or stand further back because there's a hell of a lot more actors in the play, than Israel and Hezbollah doing their dance, center stage.

You, yourself, said The White House ordered Israel to attack. We know Iran and Syria are part of the picture and probably many more we don't know for sure.

Everyone in the World has a stake in the Middle East turmoil.... some of them choose to drive that stake into the flesh of whomever they perceive as being against their own interests.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If that's your big picture, your camera is too small. Either open your aperture or stand further back because there's a hell of a lot more actors in the play, than Israel and Hezbollah doing their dance, center stage.

You, yourself, said The White House ordered Israel to attack. We know Iran and Syria are part of the picture and probably many more we don't know for sure.

Everyone in the World has a stake in the Middle East turmoil.... some of them choose to drive that stake into the flesh of whomever they perceive as being against their own interests.

I did not say America ordered the attack. But Israel needed (or at least desired) American permission to conduct the seventh invasion of Lebanon. American support would be essential to running interference in the UN and elsewhere. But even the US is but a sidebar to the big picture.

Syria and Iran are about as relevant to the Israeli Hezbollah conflict as the US was to the IRA / UK war and "Bloody Sunday". This latest conflict was a battle between Hezbollah - a militia created to drive Israel out of Lebanon - and Israel. Israel, for confused and mysterious reasons tried to drag the Lebanon Army into the conflict by attacking all of Lebanon.

Propagandists have spun myths of Syria and Iran pulling strings on a puppet called Hezbollah. Nonsense. Total nonsense. Valid only if the US sponsored IRA terrorism in the UK. Again, Syria and Iran exist only in propaganda to divert attention away from a big picture. The big picture is Hezbollah and Israel where the latter tried to drag others into a quagmire.

You are letting propaganda keep you from the complex issue. What was Israel doing attacking all of Lebanon with airplanes when their problem was only in 20 miles south of the Latani river? Why did Israel violate good military doctrine and not send in ground troops for so long? Those questions are complex. Peripheral issues such as Syria, Iran, etc are nonsense only promoted by propagandists who are alive, well, and very active.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

To which I replied and Apparently while using four letter words, you ignored replies. Use of four letter words suggests you were being foolishly emotional during that reply. The four letter word provides no useful content other than to say you are angry – a totally useless and emotional response common to those who cannot defend their opinion.

Yes, I ignored the part of the post where you agreed that the news media should not be believed as the absolute truth. Why would I?

I only responded to your accusations of positions I'd never expressed.

Are you aware calling people "childish" and "emotional", had labeled you as a bullshit artist, trying to discredit anyone that disagrees, Mr Limbaugh?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

I did not say America ordered the attack.

You're a lying motherfucker.