Fox again

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Beestie

By using public services that they aren't paying for: schools and health care mostly.

What about the cost savings on the products/services we use and the SS that many of them pay but don't use (b/c they're using someone else's #)?

[wolf]

Rare. Mostly they are working pure under the table jobs. The stolen SS#s are for when they get questioned on the street.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by wolf

Rare. Mostly they are working pure under the table jobs.

That depends on the source, it would seem.

From Fox News: Although hiring undocumented workers is illegal, the law is rarely enforced. Three out of four foreigners that enter the United States do so illegally and half are paid under the table, so they don't pay taxes.

On a more local level, from the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights, regarding undocumented immigrants in Chicago: Although 70% of undocumented immigrant workers pay taxes, they often don't collect tax refunds owed them.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by sycamore

What about the cost savings on the products/services we use and the SS that many of them pay but don't use (b/c they're using someone else's #)?

Yeah, I figured that's where you were going with that.

There are two sources of "income" from illegals: Those who work for below minimum wage (cash workers) and those who use fake SS #s to take "normal" jobs that pay no less than minimum wage. The cash workers don't pay SS.

So, where does the "income" go from those two places? For the cash workers, the wage differential b/w cash and minimum wage + taxes goes into the pocket of the employer but, in competitive situations, can be passed through in the form of cheaper strawberries. For the illegals using fake SS #s, the SS money is sitting in a mythical vault somewhere in DC.

So, in your hometown, illegals are flooding the school system and the health care system and the DMV and a host of other public services. Your property taxes are skyrocketing because the social infrastructure must expand to accomodate the extra demand created by the illegals - new schools, higher budgets for social programs, more money for uninsured patient health care, etc., etc., etc.

So, given what happens to the income created by the cash-worker illegals (lines the pocket of the employer or cheaper strawberries) and the income by the fake SS minimum wage or higher illegals (vault under the white house), it should be fairly obvious that the feel-good notion of "cost-savings" does absolutely nothing to address the burden that they create.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by wolf

Rare. Mostly they are working pure under the table jobs. The stolen SS#s are for when they get questioned on the street.

Estimates put it at $7 Billion per year that illegals dump into SS coffers.

[elSicomoro]

See my previous post, Beestie. I personally don't think that the scenarios you presented (schools, DMV, etc.) are all that prevalent.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by glatt

Estimates put it at $7 Billion per year that illegals dump into SS coffers.

Big deal, that's not even covering the cost of two months of operations in the middle east.

[elSicomoro]

At least it's $7 billion more than we expected to have.

[lookout123]

$7Billion in SS coffers? how does that pay for the schools in Arizona? California? Texas?

How about the medical care? When the hospital treats yet another illegal, and gets no money in return, can they send the claim to the SS system?

How about the law enforcement costs? who is paying for that? finding a house with 50-200 illegals crammed inside of it sounds good on the news, but who pays for everything that follows?

what about the cost when illegals get into traffic accidents and then split because they don't want to get caught?

i don't know what it is like in Philly, but I can walk outside of my office right now and find an illegal standing out there waving a flag looking for day work within 3 minutes walk. They are everywhere and they are expensive.

keep in mind that most of the money they make while here, doesn't get spent in our economy, it goes right back to Mexico.

hell, i say open the gates for legal immigration, but do something real to stop this illegal BS. make the penalties painful for both employer and illegal - if the risk is significantly higher than the possible reward, they will quit coming.

[jaguar]

I wonder how much the deflationary effect on the labour market is worth...

[busterb]

Go to any of the chicken towns here in MS. and look around. Think your best shot for a great job at wal mart in Laurel,MS. is if you can speak mex. Go to Piggly Wiggly, a super market in this small town on payday & see them at W. union sending money. Legal great. Illegal nope. imho.

[elSicomoro]

Lookout, I don't doubt that there are some instances where people are getting hosed, particularly in traffic accident situations. However:

--The dollar amounts I've seen on what illegals "cost" varies...quite widely.
--Any numbers thrown around regarding illegals are half-assed at best, IMO. After all, we're talking about illegals. Who knows what the real numbers are.
--A cost-benefit analysis could very well show that the benefits of illegals outweigh the costs.
--Of the big immigrant states, Arizona seems to be the most sensitive to issues involving illegals (California is probably a close second).

Taking those into account, I wonder if the real issue is perception.

As far as Philadelphia, from what I know and have seen, we have a growing number of illegal Mexicans in South Philly, but I don't think they constitute a real problem.

[lookout123]

kind of makes sense that you don't see a real problem, don't you think? you don't see them. not many of them anyway. when is the last time did the philadelphia news report a drop house with 150 illegals stuck inside?

they really are here. they really do effect medical, legal, education, and government costs. they really do just hang out on the streets waving flags waiting for daywork. they really do wire the money they make back south of the border.

they only argument we hear down here is "if we didn't have undocumented workers we would have to pay $25 for a cheeseburger." BS. i'm willing to chance it. hunt the bastards down, toss 'em out. drastically increase the number of legal immigration slots available. shoot the little fuckers that still decide to walk across the border. pile the bodies up as a message - do it the legal way or don't bother.

yes, i really do mean it. why bother pretending we worry about border security when anybody can walk right across the border, but it is unPC to say anything about it.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by lookout123

kind of makes sense that you don't see a real problem, don't you think? you don't see them. not many of them anyway.

No...I think the real difference here is our political philosophies. We're just seeing the issue from two different sides.

they really are here. they really do effect medical, legal, education, and government costs. they really do just hang out on the streets waving flags waiting for daywork. they really do wire the money they make back south of the border.

The only thing I don't agree with you on is sentence #2. See my previous post.

[Troubleshooter]

A point was brought up the other day, and I don't recall seeing it mentioned here yet.

It's not that there are jobs that people won't do, it's just that there are some wages that people won't work for.

In a country where 50 bucks will pay your bills for a month, 2 dollars an hour is wonderful. Living 20 people in a trailer, and there are whole parks of them here, allows you to send 90% of your money back to Mexico.

Paying 2 dollars an hour removes any motivation for a company to pay competitive wages, even after fines. All you have to do is target the companies and the problem will solve itself for the most part.