B.C.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

And as for B.C., here's an amusing site.

That site is awesome! Not just B.C., but for all the comics he reviews.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Wow. Did you realize that your question assumes that torture is the current method for day-to-day field intelligence in a war zone?

I said "torture" to appease those who would've played word games with me when I said "interrogation". The techniques I refer to range anywhere from having friendly conversations with people in the street to bitch-slapping the turban off of someone who hangs the charred corpses of our soldiers from bridges.

but your link did provide me with the most surreal experience of my day

[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

If an enemy has information that you need to keep your own people alive or help them win the war, at what point do you stop trying to extract that information? Can we only question the willing? If we catch someone planting a roadside IED and want to know where he got it, who from, and how many more there are, what are our options? Ask once (nicely, don't verbally assault the poor man), then shrug our shoulders and leave when he tells us to go fuck ourselves?

I think it may depend on who you're torturing. Sounds barbaric, but in every otherwise civilized nation, there are people who work as blunt instruments, who use unsavory methods to get information that that country needs. That, to me anyway, strikes a different moral tone than a militia group who breaks the fingers of anyone who doesn't like them.

/waves white flag/

Parley? Ok.

If an enemy has information that you need to keep your own people alive or help them win the war, at what point do you stop trying to extract that information?

This is a good question, THE question, really. You sidestepped my question and riposted with another of your own. Ok, I'll try to answer yours. I would apply the same amount of pressure I would want applied to my guys were the situation reversed. I realize I'm repeating myself. Your absurd sarcastic example of asking once, nicely, then quitting is unhelpful.

If we catch someone planting a roadside IED and want to know where he got it, who from, and how many more there are, what are our options?

Hey, let’s follow this for a minute…You caught the guy! Hoo-ah! Your further questions are good ones, just freeze frame that image for a second. Let’s say one of our troops is caught—certainly not planting an IED, but captured on patrol. The group of people holding him are for sure marked men. We don’t leave anyone behind. And these men want to know the movements of the patrols in the area since they’re certain people on their side are in grave peril from our military might. With me so far? Ok, They got our guy and they want information from him. Now I would like to pose your question to you: What are their options?

I think it may depend on who you're torturing. Sounds barbaric, but in every otherwise civilized nation, there are people who work as blunt instruments, who use unsavory methods to get information that that country needs. That, to me anyway, strikes a different moral tone than a militia group who breaks the fingers of anyone who doesn't like them.

This, this provoked the hypocrisy charge, and you know it. It depends?! Yeah, I guess in some chicken-shit lawyerly way it could depend. I mean, my pain threshold is different from, say, my kids. But I think even you don't mean that kind of scenario. You and me, we're talking soldiers and soldiers. Right? Right.

You're right on another count: it does sound barbaric, for a good reason, it is barbaric. What’s unsavory? Um, breaking fingers of anyone who dislikes them? What the hell does that mean? It is clear that when to sides are in opposition, each would reasonably cast itself as the good side and the other, the ENEMY. I bet you can understand that the other side does the same and sees us in the role of the ENEMY. Now what behavior is ok for us to do to the enemy but not ok for the enemy to do to us?

Name ONE, I defy you.

Uh huh. Thought so.

Don’t try that childish he hit me first crap either—it works no better now than when you were eight. Know why you can’t? Because we have, for want of a better phrase, higher standards. Those higher standards almost certainly represent an additional burden for our side, self-imposed tactical and strategic limitations we impose and accept for the very reason we got into this cluster flop in the first place. We imagine, for good reason, that our way is better. But the ends do not justify the means. If that were the case, why not just nuke’em all and let God sort them out? No? What’s your objection? Materialistic—destroys too much of what we want to conserve? Inhumane—kill all for the trouble of the few? Economic--*snorts*! If you object, and perhaps you may not, why do you object?

Although they are not used on the battlefield, the concepts I learned in church have traction here. Mercy, compassion. To love one’s neighbor, to love one’s enemy, to turn the other cheek are so sublimely and universally true that they utterly transcend the bounds of the western culture in which I learned them. Between nations, these truths wear the clothes of diplomacy. Even if it is in our nation’s interest to destroy our enemies, torture is NOT the answer.

Thousands upon thousands dead, year after year, in the name of destroying an enemy. Abraham Lincoln knew something of enemies, war, compassion and humanity: “Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?” Destroyed indeed, utterly destroyed.

[OnyxCougar]

Those higher standards, while sounding all moral and lofty, are making our job much more difficult.

Barbarians understand one language: violence. You kill one of us, we kill 5 of you.

No, it's not the right answer, but it is what's happening all over the world.

Higher standards be damned. They wanted a war, they got one. Don't come crying foul when we tortured people JUST LIKE YOU DID.

[BigV]

/shakes head in frustration/

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Those higher standards, while sounding all moral and lofty, are making our job much more difficult.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Barbarians understand one language: violence. You kill one of us, we kill 5 of you.

Agreed--because that's what barbarians do--kill 5 to 1.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

No, it's not the right answer, but it is what's happening all over the world.

First off, I disagree that it's happening all over the world, and even because it happens some places is no reason to do it ourselves. You know it's wrong and yet you advocate doing it... What kind of mindless sheep would you have us behave like??! Duh, everybody's doin' it..

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Higher standards be damned.

NO. LOWER standards be damned.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

They wanted a war, they got one.

What?! Turn down the FoxNews on the tv, I can't hear you. It sounded just like you said They wanted a war so they got one. Whew, that was weird.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Don't come crying foul when we tortured people JUST LIKE YOU DID.

Ok, hey, you got me on that one. Sorry for crying foul about people being tortured, when .. uh, sorry, um yeah, I DID IT FIRST. (??) Yeah, a bunch of americans were tortured so we unloaded 9 trillion zillion f*cking dollars of whoop-ass on those bitches. Yeah, busted. Caught red handed. Your (our?) torture is entirely justified.

hehehehehe... you almost had me goin on that one.

Idiot. (with my apologies to idiots the world over, sorry, it just sooo fits)

[mrnoodle]

at the root of this is a disagreement over whether or not we are the good guys. As long as you think there is no conflict between good and evil in the world, then there will be no right side in a war. no cause worth fighting for, only two sides who can't see eye to eye. that's an environment in which dictatorships thrive and despots get a free ride, because they know they're not going to get any resistance.

or maybe you think we're more evil than they are, and that their car bombs and beheadings are no more questionable than our making prisoners wear panties on their head and calling them bad names.

and bigv, stop being a fucktard. it doesn't become you.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

at the root of this is a disagreement over whether or not we are the good guys.

Please clarify: Does thinking we are the good guys mean we should or shouldn't have higher standards than our enemy when it comes to torture?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

and bigv, stop being a fucktard. it doesn't become you.

So that'd be a big NO to the parley and I should wind my white flag back into my turban.. I see.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

or maybe you think we're more evil than they are, and that their car bombs and beheadings are no more questionable than our making prisoners wear panties on their head and calling them bad names.

There was and is a helluva lot more than that. Minimizing it doesn't make it go away. Sticking your head in the sand leaves your ass hangin in the breeze.

Ok, let's compare. Carbomb destroys poorly armored Humvee, 5 soldiers die. Tank shell destroys unarmored house, 5 enemy militia die. Are we square? Where's the the "we're good and therefore justified" versus the "they're evil and therefore deserving of our mortal wrath" dynamic here? Are you deliberately changing the topic to rules of engagement from torture? I know you can follow along. Try and keep up here.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

at the root of this is a disagreement over whether or not we are the good guys. As long as you think there is no conflict between good and evil in the world, then there will be no right side in a war. no cause worth fighting for, only two sides who can't see eye to eye. that's an environment in which dictatorships thrive and despots get a free ride, because they know they're not going to get any resistance.

Let's get down to it, shall we? I do believe we're the good guys. I said that earlier.

Originally Posted by BigV

the very reason we got into this cluster flop in the first place. We imagine, for good reason, that our way is better.

One of the very reasons that makes us superior is our long standing respect for the rule of law, rules of engagement, respect for treaties. We Americans have a historical tradition of order from rules. Rules established by majorities and by consensus. Our ways are the envy of the world in many ways because of the success and opportunity made possible by the knowledge that presence and respect for rules. Not the whim of those in power.

Hell yeah, we're better! And "they" are worse. But why are they worse? Because of the despotic rule of those formerly in power, those vainly striving to retain that power. The absence of agreed upon rules. And when we flout rules, when we abandon the rules for which we are admired and are justifiably called "better", we likewise abandon our claim to be called better, or even good.

Torture is not good.

Man, I can not be plainer than that.

And if we cannot agree on that point, you and I will part company.

[bluesdave]

Where is Roger Ramjet when you need him? :p

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Those higher standards, while sounding all moral and lofty, are making our job much more difficult.

Barbarians understand one language: violence. You kill one of us, we kill 5 of you.

No, it's not the right answer, but it is what's happening all over the world.

Higher standards be damned. They wanted a war, they got one. Don't come crying foul when we tortured people JUST LIKE YOU DID.

Well, this will fit in nicely with that doctrine, and the great thing is, the playbook has already been written.

Resistance against the Third Reich took many forms. Overt opposition was rarely wise because of the danger of reprisals from the Germans to the community and the constant threats of deportation and on-the-spot death. For example, on December 7, 1941, the Nacht und Nebel(Night and Fog) order was issued to deter resistance by allowing military courts to swiftly sentence resisters to death. Those arrested under this order were said to have disappeared into the "night and fog."

[mrnoodle]

o_O

it's just insane how angry you are at this conversation. of course torture is bad. i don't think that this conversation is worth some kind of fucked up personal battle. I think we should perhaps let this particular thread go. I'll go hang out in a less hostile topic.


edit: too late, it's dead. he said nazi.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

edit: too late, it's dead. he said nazi.

Sweet, I haven't heard that in years. But we left out pedophile.

[Troubleshooter]

Just to toss in my pocket-change worth.

A small amount of discomfort, a little yelling, maybe a little slapping around, I'm cool with that. When sanity and health are called into question is when to quit. Not after you have to worry about it, but before.

As to prosecuting the war itself there should be little ambuguity in the choice of targets, there should be a willingness to go to all of the lengths that you say you are going to go to. When you say you are going to bomb someone even further into the stone age, you do it. When you say that you are going to pursue a limited form of engagement you meet those limitations. You let the opponent set the tone of the war, but you don't hold back.

When you are at war with an opponent who hides among civilians, the civilians get bombed. After that happens the civilians will put the military out to spare itself or not.

All it means is that you have to be consistent, willing to stick to what you say and flexible.

The moral highground sets the stage for others to know whether they can trust you or not. America is in the position to keep the moral highground and try to pull others up to it.

[jaguar]

I didn't retro morality was so in vogue, Onxycougar is going back to those good old testament level morality and mr noodle sounds like a british colonial officer.

Exodus 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

You'd never know we'd moved forward listening to some people in here.

[cowhead]

well... the sad thing is that I've thought enough about torture... I read too much fantasy/sci-fi I guess.. the thing I've always come to the conclusion about.. tell ya what! you rip my fingernails out I'll fucking tell you anything to make you stop.. and I will keep telling you that.. look at the spanish inquisition.. yes! I will convert to god just kill me quickly! or the salem witch trials? (insert christian bashing here.. although! yestersday I read a peice in the paper which said the only 'safe' discrmination right now was bashing christians.. I dunno maybe if you a.) would remember your history and b.) not been quite so much of a fascist power.. maybe people wouldn't be so resistive to your efforts and c.) WWJD? (he was a nice guy.. although I want to still read about his teenage years.. I mean man! you have all this power and you're 13? hormones flowing... testosterone.. uh... yeah... water to wine! lets get drunk and fuck!) anyway.. I need to take a nap