American Wahabbis and the Ten Commandments - Page 2

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

If there isn't an iconic image of the ten commandments, why do all the carvings of them look the same?

How many ways can you depict "two large tablets made of stone"?

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

How many ways can you depict "two large tablets made of stone"?

Just about infinity. And if it were truly about the words and not the image, there is no reason for it to look like two stone tablets in the first place.

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Just about infinity. And if it were truly about the words and not the image, there is no reason for it to look like two stone tablets in the first place.

?? How do you figure?

In the bible it says very clearly two stone tablets. So of course there is reason for them to look like two stone tablets...? I don't understand your post, HM.

Moses brought the first set of tablets, written with God's hand himself, down tot he people, and about 3,000 of them were dancing naked around an idol.

So Moses smashed em on the ground and had them all killed, and went back up the mountain and brought down a SECOND set of tablets, into which he had carved God's word.

They are significant in and of themselves because the words were "written in stone", a symbol of permanancy, which I'm sure struck a chord.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-10-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

How many ways can you depict "two large tablets made of stone"?

Um...

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 12:18 PM

I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide.

Beestie · 03-10-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide.

And the words, engraved in an obelisk or branded on cowhide, are still words - not a representation of something other than God or his word. The ten commandments are not "objects of worship" like the classic icon of a golden calf. The calf itself is being worshipped whereas the words merely refer back to God himself.

You are mixing the definition of icon in the artistic sense with the definition in a religious sense. Purposefully, I think.

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 12:45 PM

Well, I'm not going to argue scripture. I was just noting that there most certainly was such thing as an image of the ten commandments separate from the word content, and recognizable even when the "words" are nothing more than a wiggly line per commandment.

jaguar · 03-10-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

You can do way better than that, can't you??

Oh I could but there are others here who know the origins, history and interpretations of US docs, constitutional history & figures involved far better than I do, I'll leave them to it. However I seem to remember something about a treaty with Tripoli that made the feelings of the founding fathers rather clearer than some would like. I would furthermore add that the inclusion of an amendment to me at least makes it very clear while some or all may have been religious men they felt that religion should not extend into government. References to god alone to not usurp that principle. The argument for the commandments seems to rest in a similarly warped way to the creationist one - that because something can't be ruled out or isn't entirely clear that given that inch, you should be allowed to take a mile.

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 01:37 PM

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

Beestie · 03-10-2005, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

Its always been my understanding that separation of church and state was meant to prevent the affiliation with or endorsement of any particular religion by the government. Belief in God, in and of itself, is not a religion, imho.

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

The pledge? The coins?

The first was done to show we weren't commies, and the second was in response to increased religious fervor in the Civil War, which is more of an argument against war than for religion.

Troubleshooter · 03-10-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

"God" is NOWHERE in the Constitution. (Written by the founding fathers, to be known as ODWG from now on.)

The pledge was written without any referrence to God by a PREACHER in 1892. See a previous post with the writer's words. Again.

Here is a greenback, the first national currency, I'm still looking for the word "God".

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 02:28 PM

That's great, what about the rest of it?

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 02:49 PM

The rest of it goes out of its way to avoid Christian terms.

dar512 · 03-10-2005, 03:01 PM

It is certain that the Judeo-Christian ethic has affected western civilisation in many ways. Certainly it has affected the set of laws we now have.

On the other hand, "When religion and politics ride in the same cart...". (Dang can't remember the rest of the quote. Herbert or Heinlein, I think.)

I'm Catholic. How about we put a statue of Mary in the state capitols? See the kind of trouble this can lead to?

I'd rather keep religion and politics separate.

One more 'however'. I do vote based on my morality.

03-10-2005, 12:18 PM	#5
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 12:45 PM	#7
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Well, I'm not going to argue scripture. I was just noting that there most certainly was such thing as an image of the ten commandments separate from the word content, and recognizable even when the "words" are nothing more than a wiggly line per commandment. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 01:37 PM	#9
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins? If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-10-2005, 02:28 PM	#13
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	That's great, what about the rest of it? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-10-2005, 02:49 PM	#14
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	The rest of it goes out of its way to avoid Christian terms. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 03:01 PM	#15
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	It is certain that the Judeo-Christian ethic has affected western civilisation in many ways. Certainly it has affected the set of laws we now have. On the other hand, "When religion and politics ride in the same cart...". (Dang can't remember the rest of the quote. Herbert or Heinlein, I think.) I'm Catholic. How about we put a statue of Mary in the state capitols? See the kind of trouble this can lead to? I'd rather keep religion and politics separate. One more 'however'. I do vote based on my morality. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

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