Clearly liberals are promoting durg addiction again - Page 2

Happy Monkey · 02-18-2005, 10:42 AM

Canada would not be able to defend itself militarily against the US no matter what percentage of its GDP it spent.

And, as an aside, the US wouldn't be able to defend itself morally for such an action, though I'm not particularly sanguine about the deterrant value of that fact if things continue down the current path.

lookout123 · 02-18-2005, 10:51 AM

[quote=Happy Monkey]Canada would not be able to defend itself militarily against the US no matter what percentage of its GDP it spent.
QUOTE]

nothing like the good old days when they whipped us twice... 'cuz we couldn't get the individual state's militias to support eachother.

Silent · 02-18-2005, 11:09 AM

You get your information form the media outlets?
Gosh, well, excuse me. We all know that the media would never focus on what makes a good story rather then looking at the whole picture.

The Canadian military under funded? Yup. Chronically. Has been for years. It does not have the resources required to maintain the infrastructure network built up during the cold war. Therefore aircraft and ships are mothballed. Presently there is a restructuring going on to realign funding from its historic path, towards Canadas' primary global responsibility right now, which is peace keeping.
And we are the most respected peace keeping force out there.
But really, the only problem with the Canadian military is funding. During the annual Reforger exerciese in Europe in the 80's and early 90's, the Canadian army consistantly scored better rankings then the any American ground force. The main complaint lodged against the Canadians were their lack of transportation and communications equipment. Pure money issues.
However, if your definition of suckage is bench marked by the amount of equipment bought and number of bodies in uniform? Guilty. We suck. But, before you make that call, you may want to ask a few members of your own military who were in Afganistan about the suckage of the Canadian snipers they served with.
http://www.stormpages.com/swellal/sof.html

As for the state Canadian medical care, we have problems. It would be foolish to deny that. There has been a drain on nurses and doctors for years to the states because of the higher pay. For certain medical procedures there are long waits because there are so few specialist available to perform the procedures. And not every hospital can afford the latest and greatest equipment.
That being said, I am from a small town. One real hospital (and a couple of clinics) serves about 250 000 people. The longest I have ever waited to see a doctor? 2 hours. How long did I have to wait when I dislocated my shoulder or blew a disc in my back? Less the 5 minutes. How much did it cost me? Nadda.
You can always find horror stories. No system is perfect. But how many Canadians stay away from hospitals until it's desparate because they can't afford it? None. How many Canadians had their lives ruined because of medical bills? Zip. Compare that to 1 million Americans last year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Feb8.html

Given my druthers, I know where I'd rather be sick.

Beestie · 02-18-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent

But, before you make that call, you may want to ask a few members of your own military who were in Afganistan about the suckage of the Canadian snipers they served with.

I will readily clarify that I never intended "suck" to in any way question the skill or bravery demonstrated by any soldier in the Canadian military. My comments were directed at the state of the Canadian miliary machine collectively. I apologize for any offence you might have taken from that.

Silent · 02-18-2005, 11:34 AM

Apology accepted.
And I'm sorry if I sort of went off here. I readily admit to be sensitive to criticism about the Canadian military. I was intensely proud when I served and still am of the men and women who do such an amazing job with so little in the way of support from our federal government.
If you want to get into the different training philosophies employed by the Canadian and American militaries, and why the Canadian way is far superior just let me know. ;-)

lumberjim · 02-18-2005, 03:35 PM

well.....I think Canada sucks. And I base that soley on my vague emotional response to things I've heard about them and a few Canuks I've met and disliked.

I think the mom from 'That Seventies Show' said it best when she said, "Well, honey, they're Canadian. They don't really matter"

LabRat · 02-18-2005, 04:16 PM

leave it to beaver...

lookout123 · 02-18-2005, 04:16 PM

well, i don't trust 'em, i tell ya. you can't trust anybody who can't talk without having their head split in two, i tell ya.

now shut up and kick the baby.

Silent · 02-18-2005, 05:29 PM

Don't kick the baby.

lookout123 · 02-18-2005, 05:33 PM

Ike - do your impressionof David Carruso's career!

Silent · 02-18-2005, 06:30 PM

*nose-dives from a rooftop into a snowdrift and disappears*

richlevy · 02-18-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. That's also about what Switzerland spends (1.1% of GDP/$310 per capita). But, the point is not only that Canada spends less than $10B/annually on its military but also that it is not enough simply to keep its troops and equipment in "ready to deploy" mode. France, by comparison, spends 2.6% of its GDP on its military ($663 per capita) and France isn't exactly posturing for war.

France is also less than 500 miles from Bosnia and the Balkans and less than 2000 miles from Uzbekistan, Iraq, and any number of small Asian countries.

Canada, like the US, has thousands of miles of ocean between it and every other country except Russia and the US. Unlike the US it does not feel the need to police the entire world, although it is a member of NATO.

xoxoxoBruce · 02-18-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent
But, before you make that call, you may want to ask a few members of your own military who were in Afganistan about the suckage of the Canadian snipers they served with.

A long tradition of crackshots. SHOTS, I said Shots.

But what about the next generation, now they've been disarmed?

Silent · 02-19-2005, 08:06 AM

Canada has a long tradition of stripping its military to the bare bones between conflicts. However, we usually keep a nucleus of highly trained pros and a system of calling up large numbers of militia (your reserves) in time of conflict and using that highly trained core of pros to instruct the militia.
You need a small group of highly motivated pros? Can do.
Need to defend yourself from a large aggressive neighbor? Ummm, give us 6-12 months. :-)

Undertoad · 02-19-2005, 08:46 AM

Not to rain on anyone's fantasy parade, but the US would not invade Canada for imperialistic purposes. In all of our history of militaristic adventures we have only asked for enough land to bury our dead.

The real reason to have a serious military is that without it you get no diplomatic sway on the world scale. Against Iraq? Who the fuck cares? Canada can't actually oppose it with force and can't actually assist it with force. With a show military the only sway it has with the world is for show. So Canada can't get all mad when the US goes ignoring its opinion in matters.

Canada will never be invaded because it is against the interests of the US. For practical purposes it really doesn't matter if the military is for show. To claim you need a military to avoid being invaded by the US is ungracious.

Similarly, since half of all medical costs are borne in one's last year of life, and since aging Canadians move to Florida and Arizona in droves... without the US, the Canadian health system would fail, utterly and obviously. The fact that it's failing slowly, even with the US acting as a safety valve, should be troubling evidence to those trying to figure out how medical expenses can be shouldered by government.

02-18-2005, 10:42 AM	#16
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Canada would not be able to defend itself militarily against the US no matter what percentage of its GDP it spent. And, as an aside, the US wouldn't be able to defend itself morally for such an action, though I'm not particularly sanguine about the deterrant value of that fact if things continue down the current path. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

02-18-2005, 10:51 AM	#17
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	[quote=Happy Monkey]Canada would not be able to defend itself militarily against the US no matter what percentage of its GDP it spent. QUOTE] nothing like the good old days when they whipped us twice... 'cuz we couldn't get the individual state's militias to support eachother. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-18-2005, 03:35 PM	#21
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	well.....I think Canada sucks. And I base that soley on my vague emotional response to things I've heard about them and a few Canuks I've met and disliked. I think the mom from 'That Seventies Show' said it best when she said, "Well, honey, they're Canadian. They don't really matter" __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

02-18-2005, 04:16 PM	#22
LabRat twatfaced two legged bumhole Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,143	leave it to beaver... __________________ Strength does not come from how much weight you can lift, or how many miles you can run. It comes from knowing that you set a goal, and rose to the challenge. Strength comes from within.

02-18-2005, 04:16 PM	#23
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	well, i don't trust 'em, i tell ya. you can't trust anybody who can't talk without having their head split in two, i tell ya. now shut up and kick the baby. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-18-2005, 11:09 AM	#18
Silent Romanes Eunt Domus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 702	You get your information form the media outlets? Gosh, well, excuse me. We all know that the media would never focus on what makes a good story rather then looking at the whole picture. The Canadian military under funded? Yup. Chronically. Has been for years. It does not have the resources required to maintain the infrastructure network built up during the cold war. Therefore aircraft and ships are mothballed. Presently there is a restructuring going on to realign funding from its historic path, towards Canadas' primary global responsibility right now, which is peace keeping. And we are the most respected peace keeping force out there. But really, the only problem with the Canadian military is funding. During the annual Reforger exerciese in Europe in the 80's and early 90's, the Canadian army consistantly scored better rankings then the any American ground force. The main complaint lodged against the Canadians were their lack of transportation and communications equipment. Pure money issues. However, if your definition of suckage is bench marked by the amount of equipment bought and number of bodies in uniform? Guilty. We suck. But, before you make that call, you may want to ask a few members of your own military who were in Afganistan about the suckage of the Canadian snipers they served with. http://www.stormpages.com/swellal/sof.html As for the state Canadian medical care, we have problems. It would be foolish to deny that. There has been a drain on nurses and doctors for years to the states because of the higher pay. For certain medical procedures there are long waits because there are so few specialist available to perform the procedures. And not every hospital can afford the latest and greatest equipment. That being said, I am from a small town. One real hospital (and a couple of clinics) serves about 250 000 people. The longest I have ever waited to see a doctor? 2 hours. How long did I have to wait when I dislocated my shoulder or blew a disc in my back? Less the 5 minutes. How much did it cost me? Nadda. You can always find horror stories. No system is perfect. But how many Canadians stay away from hospitals until it's desparate because they can't afford it? None. How many Canadians had their lives ruined because of medical bills? Zip. Compare that to 1 million Americans last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Feb8.html Given my druthers, I know where I'd rather be sick.

02-18-2005, 11:34 AM	#20
Silent Romanes Eunt Domus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 702	Apology accepted. And I'm sorry if I sort of went off here. I readily admit to be sensitive to criticism about the Canadian military. I was intensely proud when I served and still am of the men and women who do such an amazing job with so little in the way of support from our federal government. If you want to get into the different training philosophies employed by the Canadian and American militaries, and why the Canadian way is far superior just let me know. ;-)

02-18-2005, 05:29 PM	#24
Silent Romanes Eunt Domus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 702	Don't kick the baby.

02-18-2005, 05:33 PM	#25
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Ike - do your impressionof David Carruso's career! __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-18-2005, 06:30 PM	#26
Silent Romanes Eunt Domus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 702	nose-dives from a rooftop into a snowdrift and disappears

02-19-2005, 08:06 AM	#29
Silent Romanes Eunt Domus Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 702	Canada has a long tradition of stripping its military to the bare bones between conflicts. However, we usually keep a nucleus of highly trained pros and a system of calling up large numbers of militia (your reserves) in time of conflict and using that highly trained core of pros to instruct the militia. You need a small group of highly motivated pros? Can do. Need to defend yourself from a large aggressive neighbor? Ummm, give us 6-12 months. :-)

02-19-2005, 08:46 AM	#30
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Not to rain on anyone's fantasy parade, but the US would not invade Canada for imperialistic purposes. In all of our history of militaristic adventures we have only asked for enough land to bury our dead. The real reason to have a serious military is that without it you get no diplomatic sway on the world scale. Against Iraq? Who the fuck cares? Canada can't actually oppose it with force and can't actually assist it with force. With a show military the only sway it has with the world is for show. So Canada can't get all mad when the US goes ignoring its opinion in matters. Canada will never be invaded because it is against the interests of the US. For practical purposes it really doesn't matter if the military is for show. To claim you need a military to avoid being invaded by the US is ungracious. Similarly, since half of all medical costs are borne in one's last year of life, and since aging Canadians move to Florida and Arizona in droves... without the US, the Canadian health system would fail, utterly and obviously. The fact that it's failing slowly, even with the US acting as a safety valve, should be troubling evidence to those trying to figure out how medical expenses can be shouldered by government.

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