Are there only two philosophical questions?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

It appears to me the most powerful objection to a belief in God, is the fact of evil. Most likely for agnostics it is the appaling depth of human suffering, that makes the idea of a loving Creator seem so hard to understand. Thus, disposing them toward their agnosticism, atheism, or an unseemingly far fetched beliefs as life just being a scientific phenonomen.

I'm thinking that you have that ass backwards.

Do you think that it may just be possible that a good portion of the abuses heaped upon people were at the behest of the leaders of said creator's church? I think that history bears that idea out.

Also, I've found that as a rationalist I have, over time, learned to apply rationality to most things that occur in life and have it give me comfort from being able to pick the things in my life that I have control over from those that I do not. The trick is to realize that you do not have control over most of what goes on around you, and that no invisible force has shown itself preeminent in that position either.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I'm thinking that you have that ass backwards.

Do you think that it may just be possible that a good portion of the abuses heaped upon people were at the behest of the leaders of said creator's church? I think that history bears that idea out.

Also, I've found that as a rationalist I have, over time, learned to apply rationality to most things that occur in life and have it give me comfort from being able to pick the things in my life that I have control over from those that I do not. The trick is to realize that you do not have control over most of what goes on around you, and that no invisible force has shown itself preeminent in that position either.

Is it absolutely necessary, to start your dialouge with deragatory comments.
If you can answer most things that occur in life, why can't you use the same perspective on all events? Are you sure you can pick out the things you have control over? I find it difficult to believe you have control over much more than your views. If you check carefully, you'll see you don't have control over emotions etc...... just the ability to act on those emotions. Be grateful you can rationalize most of what you believe. Some might even call that denial......
"No one is so wrong as the man who knows all the answers."-Thomas merton

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Is it absolutely necessary, to start your dialouge with deragatory comments.

It's not derogatory, it's a colorful metaphor, relax.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

If you can answer most things that occur in life, why can't you use the same perspective on all events?

I can't necessarily answer all of the questions that occur in life. What I can do is judge whether they are answerable or not and if they are then I answer it, but if it isn't then I put it on the back burner for further study. What I don't do is blame it on some invisible force that has no apparent causal relationship other than what someone else says is true.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Are you sure you can pick out the things you have control over?

Generally so, yes.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

I find it difficult to believe you have control over much more than your views.

Your belief is not necessery for my validity, that's one of the purposes that religion serves, to get groups on the same page. Religion has outlived its purpose.

Also, the realization that I have control over only a small number of the things in my life and that there is no evidence that some omnipresent being controls the rest was very liberating.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

If you check carefully, you'll see you don't have control over emotions etc...... just the ability to act on those emotions.

I'll have to disagree, along with research to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Be grateful you can rationalize most of what you believe. Some might even call that denial......

I don't have to be grateful, it's only by the sweat of my own brow that I am able to bring thinking to bear instead of dogma and pat ideology.

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

"No one is so wrong as the man who knows all the answers."-Thomas merton

I know.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It's not derogatory, it's a colorful metaphor, relax.



I can't necessarily answer all of the questions that occur in life. What I can do is judge whether they are answerable or not and if they are then I answer it, but if it isn't then I put it on the back burner for further study. What I don't do is blame it on some invisible force that has no apparent causal relationship other than what someone else says is true.



Generally so, yes.



Your belief is not necessery for my validity, that's one of the purposes that religion serves, to get groups on the same page. Religion has outlived its purpose.

Also, the realization that I have control over only a small number of the things in my life and that there is no evidence that some omnipresent being controls the rest was very liberating.



I'll have to disagree, along with research to the contrary.



I don't have to be grateful, it's only by the sweat of my own brow that I am able to bring thinking to bear instead of dogma and pat ideology.



I know.

Thanks, I'm metahoricaly relaxed, but that could just be the valium.
I hope you not inferring that I am lead by some invisible force, to believe anything at all. Probably one of my biggest problems is not believing in anything, other than what can be proven wiith my own eyes. You'll have to argue your point about religion outliving it's purpose, with someone who gives a damn. I'm having a hard time understsanding how you continue to correlate my views with mainstream religion. Sir, If you consider my views dogmatic, you might want to look the word up in the dictionary. Also, ,metaphoricaly speaking, you are one of the most idealistic people, I have ever had the pleasure of speaking with........

Learning to live in such an idealistic society, within it's norms, is a miricle in itself.

[cowhead]

oh dear. hot dogs huh? huge fan of both wrangler pure beef hot dog and the stuff schwanns sells...

okay there are about a bazillion different versions of what one may or may not put on a hot dog..

*ducking* I like catsup, mustard (the yellow variety) minced onions and black pepper
or
stone ground horseradish mustard saur kraut and minced onioins
or
chili and cheddar and onions
...hmmm see a trend developing here...
american chee and catsup (sorry it's an Indiana thing)
or or or or geez!
ya wanna go crazy!?!?!? try carmalized onions (hmm more onions) roasted red peppers and a bit of gruyere cheese.. on a.... wheat or pumpernickel bun

*ducking and rolling under desk*

[cowhead]

well.. geez on the serious topic..

the devil is a construct of the catholic (christian) church as a means to scare the populous into submission, which is also based on the greek god Pan, in order to win more converts they co-opted a great deal of the older religions iconography in orded to insinuate themselves with the existing 'mythology' and there by (in the greatest marketing ploy in history) associate themselves with existing traditions and events and slowly destroy those events/remove non-christian identification from them (ie. easter/halloween/christmas and there are quite a few others.

So, in my humble opinion good and evil are constructs of the human mind, the basic difference between animal desires and the overall well being of society.. respectively evil and good (duh but you knew that).

as I'm in kansas I'm not getting into the debate about creation (or rather 'intelligent design') vs. evolution. both have holes (some more than others)

[smoothmoniker]

Cowhead, you're totally right on with that. Soooooo many people don't realize how massive and frightening the Catholic conspiracy is regarding the devil. Not only did they see the need for a fear-based demagoguery, not only did they co-opt Pan to be their whipping boy, they also managed to swoop back in time to diasporic Hebrew writers and subliminally suggest the idea using a secret combination of stale wafers and bland “positive-pop” music.

The only part of the conspiracy that most people are aware of is the part where the Nuns can fly, but not all that other stuff. Thanks for waving the banner.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

The only part of the conspiracy that most people are aware of is the part where the Nuns can fly, but not all that other stuff. Thanks for waving the banner.

With all those nuns in street clothes today, the flying part is right out.

[wolf]

I will burn in hell.

I make a party dish called drunken dragon hot dogs, that involves cutting up a couple pounds of dogs, and cooking along with secret amounts of ketchup, jack daniels, and dragon hot sauce ...

[Happy Monkey]

Hot dogs should be eaten without buns, except on Fridays.

[richlevy]

From the Cellar Archives:

-----MARK-----
Post: 4784 of 4786
Subject: Re: But Editor
From: editor (bruce morgen)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 00:10:33 EST

barak (Yoshua Barak) writes:

[Much apocalypic meandering deleted]

Like I said, I never attempt reasoned discourse with a true believer. If your
ilk is what God loves and wants of humankind, I'll take my chances and give
honest negative answers to your questions, regardless of who or what poses
them. Nine out of ten humans on the planet are going to hell if you're right
and I'll stand with them.

Whenever I see a religion debate I think back to the dial-up Cellar and Barak. I think Bruce is right, everyone has to stand for his or her ideals and hope that if there is a God, he gives points for trying.

Thanks for stopping by -- call back regularly!

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The Cellar BBS 215-539-3043 multiple lines HST/V.32

[wolf]

Stunning. Absolutely stunning.

I remember a couple of years ago going through some floppies and finding some text files I'd saved ... I hope I still have them ... I believe that the Mike Smith debacle was included in that archive I had.

[jaguar]

goals are, if anything, more personal than ideals. At best they are even.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by jaguar

goals are, if anything, more personal than ideals. At best they are even.

I may be wrong, but I thought ideals were views of an individual or group of individuals. I thought goals were something a person tried to reach good or bad. Just wondering........

[wolf]

Ideals are whatcha want, goals are how yah get there.