tw & me

[Undertoad]

The C-130s are exactly what's required. When what you have is a disaster area hundreds of thousands of miles long, but one block deep, the critical thing is not a lack of supplies, but getting them to the place they're needed.

It turns out the C-130s can not only take things to the location but take off with new supplies for another location. A water purification system that stays in one location - great for that one location, too bad for every other location... unless you have helos and C130s to move that water around.

Now remind us, how did the critical C-130s take off without that executive decision that was supposedly required on day five?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by busterb

Wouldn't surprise me if some of the first supplies contained Spam & canned ham. Which the Muslims might not eat.

Well, gee, you know, Jews don't eat spam or pork either, but they refused assistance from them, didn't they?

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Well, gee, you know, Jews don't eat spam or pork either, but they refused assistance from them, didn't they?

Not completely true.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The C-130s are exactly what's required. When what you have is a disaster area hundreds of thousands of miles long, but one block deep, the critical thing is not a lack of supplies, but getting them to the place they're needed.

Six C-130s did all that? Guess again. Needed on the first days are hundreds of small C-130s. And who has them (including the ones that don't work because they were built as pork for Trent Lott)? The one organization that was not permitted to respond for five days. The US government waited for George Jr to respond.

But C-130s are not what is really needed. Needed are bigger planes that fly faster, need not land, and deliver more supplies.

Furthermore, the disaster is so extensive that even helicopters find it difficult to land. What is a paltry 6 C-130s suppose to do? What are P-3 Orions (I believe he sent nine) going to do? Show me supplies being delivered by P-3 Orions. Its called waving the flag. Pretend help has arrived. In the meantime even India - a victim - was also providing more aid to those adjacent nations. Why? They did not have a mental midget president who thought six C-130s were big planes. Instead India was sending serious aid.

Real aid does not start until the C-17s and C-5A start landing. Its been one week. Where are they? Oh. The president had to make a decision.

[wolf]

"Small" C-130s? Aren't they all the same size??

[tw]

Originally Posted by wolf

"Small" C-130s? Aren't they all the same size??

C-130s are medium transport planes. They should have been out of production long ago because the C-130 - as military transport - was not a small plane. C-17s do what the C-130 did - but better. Any money wasted on C-130Js means less of the larger, faster, more efficient C-17s. Ironic, those latest built C-130s (done only for Senator pork reasons) still are not operational. Once the C-130 was a big transport. No longer. C-130s are small transport planes - as the DC-10 once was a big cargo plane.

[lumberjim]

visual aid:

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Not completely true.

understood, but my point was really about commonality of eating habits in regards to.... never mind.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yes, the C-17 is one hell of an aircraft in that it’ll carry 85 tons at 500 mph, and with in-flight refueling, fly around the world. All it needs is a 3000 x 92 foot dirt strip to get in and out because they can routinely back up to do a 3 point turn on the strip.

Now the C-130 is also a good aircraft, 23 tons at almost 300 knots for 2500 miles. Not only short strip capable but they have this neat trick of yanking a cargo pallet (up to 38000 lbs) out the back door with a ‘chute while flying 10’ off the ground and not having to land at all.

Of course the C-130 is $23 million (1992$) whereas the C- 17 is $202 million (1998$).
One problem is there are only 118 C- 17s on active duty (8 reserve) and we do have a couple of wars going on. We do have C-130s, however, like fleas on a dog.

PS- I think the purpose of the P- 3 Orions is with their electronic equipment they can find things (even as small as a person) anywhere on land or water.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now the C-130 is also a good aircraft, 23 tons at almost 300 knots for 2500 miles. Not only short strip capable but they have this neat trick of yanking a cargo pallet (up to 38000 lbs) out the back door with a ‘chute while flying 10’ off the ground and not having to land at all.

Capabilities of the C-130 was the objective of C-17s. The higher price? Notice who (unfortunately) designed and built the C-17 - which is why the plane so desperately needed took so long to get deployed.

Best way to distribute aid is not to land at distribution airports. Fly the material direct from the source to where it is needed, parachute it out the back, do same at the so many locations, then get back to base faster for more supplies. Its the same concept that made Walmart so successful. Eliminate the management problem. IOW we don't need C-130s waiting while other craft unload, reload on C-130, then slowly fly to where cargo is needed. They needed it last week - ASAP while the president sat on his ass. The Tsunami relief was a perfect job for C-17s. But instead we sent near zero response. Some C-130s and some survelliance planes.

BTW, where does that map show the non-operational squadron due to defective C-130J? Forgot where that Congressional pork was deployed - at the expense of a more necessary C-17. Where are they? Or why did that map forget to discuss the C-130J?

A little trivia. The same C-130 that took off in Washington on 11 September (bound for MN), was ordered to follow AA flight 77, and saw it strike the Pentagon - is the same C-130 flight that found AA flight 93 burning in PA.

[lookout123]

tw, have you ever seen a parachute drop of mass supplies? again very useful, but these aren't guided munitions - you have to drop them away from populated areas or John Q Citizen gets real upset when his house, kid, dog are crushed under a few thousand pounds of water and mre's.

distribution is the key.

[OnyxCougar]

Hey Tee? How many relief operations have you co-ordinated? Were you on site where the relief was needed or were you in the command center co-ordinating drops?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Notice who (unfortunately) designed and built the C-17 - which is why the plane so desperately needed took so long to get deployed.

MacDonald Douglas. They went close to bankrupt thanks to CEO Harry Stoneciphers propensity for sucking up to the Pentagon and ignoring their commercial business.
Boeing bought them to head off a European bid to grab one of our biggest defense contractors. Now Harry runs Boeing.
The C-17 is one of the most sophisticated aircraft ever built, including the fighters and spy planes.

Or why did that map forget to discuss the C-130J?

The map show OPERATIONAL C-130s.
The 50 C-130j's, built by Lockheed Martin, are assigned to 2 Air Squadrons which have been nonoperational for 4 years and 3 Guard and Reserve Units.
LM got in over their head on the J's and the military mistakenly tried to go along until LM could get it right rather than bankrupting them.
They had about 850 non-spec problems with about 160 of them category 1 which is life threatening.

I think the best bet for delivering supplies and extracacting people in the Chinook Helicopter. Remember the picture of one with it's rear ramp down on an Afghani rooftop? Unfortunately they are tied up in a couple of wars.

[Griff]

Hmmm... Didn't I put up a perfectly good GW lockbox thread...?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I think the best bet for delivering supplies and extracacting people in the Chinook Helicopter. Remember the picture of one with it's rear ramp down on an Afghani rooftop? Unfortunately they are tied up in a couple of wars.

Where's the Osprey when you need it? It's one of my favorite aircraft designs, in addition to being one of the most disappointing. I've seen one give a demonstration at Pensacola NAS several times, it's a truly astounding piece of hardware.

A pity really, it's ideal for this situation.