U.S. Helicopters filmed firing into crowd of civilians

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by 404Error

Like Bruce said, telling the difference between combatants and civilians is difficult, if not impossible. They don't wear uniforms like our troops do and it's well known that these insurgents, or whatever you want to call them, will hide behind civilians and pop up just long enough to fire off an RPG or fire a few rounds at our troops.

Originally Posted by lookout123

BS - who is saying these were all innocent civilians? why would innocent civilians who want nothing to do with a fight be milling about a disabled US bradley? those we are fighting wear the same clothes as the civilians and have shown a willingness to put women and children in front of them in the hopes that the US wouldn't fire on women and children.

Oh ok.... the helicopter pilots made a surprise attack on a crowd of people in a residential area just in case some of them were insurgents. With tactics like that, particularly when they are intentional, it's no wonder the reistance in Iraq grows daily. Having a loved one killed on their way to work because they made the mistake of walking down a street where damaged US equipment had been sitting for a few hours-- that will brew some powerful, justified hatred.

I agree with and understand the fact that we can't leave partially damaged military hardware sitting around for the enemy to pilfer. That's not the issue. The fact is that the pilots made no effort to clear the scene of innocent civilians before opening up. These people bleeding in the streets (look for heading "Civilians Killed As Dawn Battle Erupts In Baghdad") are the same people we "saved" from Saddam, and here we are blowing them up unnecessarily, and without warning. Even circling once or twice before firing would have probably done the trick. What is it, exactly, we have liberated these people from?

[Pi]

Originally Posted by lookout123

i get a lot of my info from - as you like to say, from people "where the work gets done" - those that are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. I know people on the ground there right now. some rotated back stateside this weekend. I speak with these people about what they are encountering over there. Every one of them are pretty pissed about what they see on the news, because according to them, it isn't an accurate representation of what is really happening over there.

I wouldn't believe anything a soldier told me, because I'm a soldier too. You don't have any battle experience or similar, don't you? Ever heard of battle stress an tunnel vision? There was a film (maybe ROE, don't know anymore), who sowed it quite clearly. The fact seeing an enemy doesn't mean that there really is one. Especally when they all wear the same clothes. You're just focusing and when you see only on thing fitting in your scheme of danger, you see it everywhere.
That doesn't mean, you are going crazy, but it is a problem in military operations. Trying to get a discipline in your troops before they use their weapons and not only firing in the heap.
And there's something else, military is a lot of talking and a lot of talking to people knowing shit about what happened. It's a very good feeling, when you can tell stories about what "happened" and everything is admiring you. And it's not easy for people coming home, when everybody is against a war you're fighting, so it's normal trying to defend yourself at home.
This doesn't mean that every soldier is lying, but believe me, I do it myself, unconsiously, knowing it isn't as tough as it seems.
So be carefull when hearing stories from a soldier, always.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by hot_pastrami

The fact is that the pilots made no effort to clear the scene of innocent civilians before opening up. These people bleeding in the streets (look for heading "Civilians Killed As Dawn Battle Erupts In Baghdad") are the same people we "saved" from Saddam, and here we are blowing them up unnecessarily, and without warning. Even circling once or twice before firing would have probably done the trick. What is it, exactly, we have liberated these people from?

here is the thing - we weren't there. we don't know how or why things went down the way the did. we are relying on the reporting that is made available to us. each person has an agenda.

did the pilots just wake up and decide they were going to wack some innocents today? maybe, but it doesn't sound like the actions of any of the pilots i know or have known.

was there some type of warning given that we aren't aware of? we have no way of knowing.

would circling a couple of times opened the helicopters up to rpg fire? we have no way of knowing.

were the people milling around the disabled bradley, on a street involved in a battle really innocent civilians? we don't know.

what i do know is that professional soldiers don't get off on killing people for no good reason. i know that it is a career ender to be found guilty of firing inappropriately. i know that most soldiers do their best to help people, not go out of their way to harm them needlessly. that is my starting point for looking at all incoming information. so i run what little info we have through my life's experiences and come up with the conclusion that A) we don't know all the details so passing judgement is inappropriate B) we will never know al the details unless you speak first hand with people that were on the ground and in the air and take multiple views into account. that won't happen because the military is not going to give interviews. bad shit happens in battle.


each person's experiences will cause them to look at the same info and come to a different conclusion. if your starting point is that gwb started the Iraq war as a neocon adventure and the military is full of incompetence and they have completely lost control of the situation, it would be easy to see the incoming info and decide that these were obviously innocent civilians minding their own business before they were ambushed and killed by a helicopter attack.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Pi

So be carefull when hearing stories from a soldier, always.

i know very well what you are talking about. i am in the military and have experienced what you are talking about. i take all stories with a grain of salt. the people i lend weight to are the ones i have known for a long time (before they went) and i know their tendencies in story telling. when you have multiple perspectives that are consistant - then there is reason to believe what you hear.

edit: to clarify - i am not approaching these people for stories of glory or anything of the sort. a portion of my job requires that i hear their stories.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by lookout123

here is the thing - we weren't there. we don't know how or why things went down the way the did. we are relying on the reporting that is made available to us. each person has an agenda.

The whole point of the thread is that this time, it was caught on film. Any viewer can see that the people milling about had NO visible weapons. They DID NOT fire at the helicopters when they appeared. Unless you want to try to leverage an absurd argument that tape is digitally altered with special effects, then we DO know these facts to be true. We DO know there was no warning from the U.S. helicopters. We don't have to ask anybody, we can see it for ourselves.

Tell me if you disagree with this statement, and if so, why?: In a residential area, when no weapons are visible, and there is no incoming fire... the crowd must be assumed to be comprised of civilians, and every effort should be made to disperse them before firing until/unless a threat is encountered.

I don't think the problem is that soldiers have a blood lust... I don't think they are motivated by hatred to murder innocent people. It's just a passive disregard for human life, and a war policy which supports that. This is evidenced by the filmed attack, many other unnecessary civilian casualties, the infamous prison photos, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

"If they appear to be Musilims, blow them up, because they might be enemies! Remember, today's survivor is tomorrow's insurgent, so leave none alive!"

[warch]

here is the thing - we weren't there.

here's the other thing- We are responsible for their actions. We fund it, we select leadership who design policies, give orders and we take responsibilty for their actions by holding them accountable. So its our duty to at least try to understand what is going on and participate by helping make the best decisions and correcting misdirection. At least try to be aware of all who are dying on your dime. This is urban guerilla warfare. This is the messy situation everyone was worried about when Baghdad was invaded. We arent facing a uniformed opposing army. And it certainly favors the insurgents.

I happened to read this today, From the Washington Post: A returning Marine corps Lt General Conway blasted the orders he was given by Sanchez and the Adminstration to pull Marines and send in the make-shift "Fallujah Brigade" when things got tense back in April. It served to create a robust no-go zone, aided by a lot of useful US gear.

Eventually, the 800 AK-47 assault rifles, 27 pickup trucks and 50 radios the Marines gave the brigade wound up in the hands of the insurgents, according to Marine officers. Marines manning a checkpoint on the city's eastern fringe were shot at by gunmen wearing Fallujah Brigade uniforms.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by lookout123

what i do know is that professional soldiers don't get off on killing people for no good reason.

Nah, they get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

Nah, they get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners.

I love how people can take the actions of a few people and apply it to a whole group and justify what they generalize to that group as true. These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few. So.. how about you just shut the hell up and give these guys a little respect that they deserve. They are dealing with things that I pray to God that you and I will never have to endure, so the least you can do is not subjigate them to you're unfair generalizations and unneccessary attacks.

[Clodfobble]

The whole point of the thread is that this time, it was caught on film. Any viewer can see that the people milling about had NO visible weapons.

HP, where did you see a copy of the video? I couldn't find any links in any of the articles.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

HP, where did you see a copy of the video? I couldn't find any links in any of the articles.

There are a couple of crappy Real Video versions of it out there... I can't watch them on my work computer here, so I don't know exactly how crappy they are.

BBC Real Video
CBS News Real Video

There are probably better versions of it out there if you look hard enough.

[lookout123]

HP - that video reiterates what i was saying. we don't know all that happened there. the reporter states that there had been heavy fighting all day. that street was involved in the fighting. a bradley was knocked out. iraqi's were celebrating at the location of the disabled bradley. we don't know what happened in the 60 seconds, 5 minutes, or 10 minutes before that short segment of video.

if the people that were milling around the were part of the forces that disabled the bradley, it wouldn't make sense to try to scatter them before launching. we have no evidence to say they were or were not a part of the force that disabled the bradley. in the end, it still stands to reason, it doesn't pay to hang out in a street where a battle just rolled through checking out disabled american equipment.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by lookout123

we don't know what happened in the 60 seconds, 5 minutes, or 10 minutes before that short segment of video.

Neither did the helicopter pilots, who had just barely arrived. All they knew is that about three hours previous, one of their vehicles was disabled there. When the helicopters arrived, there was a street filled with people, some of them looking at the vehicle, some of them climbing on the vehicle, some of them just walking down the street; on their way to work, or home, or to the store. And what do the pilots do? They lob high explosives into the crowd.

We claim to be there to liberate the Iraqi people, and instead our forces needlessly and intentionally put their lives in danger every day. Our military's disregard for innocent lives in this instance is nauseating.

Originally Posted by lookout123

if the people that were milling around the were part of the forces that disabled the bradley, it wouldn't make sense to try to scatter them before launching. we have no evidence to say they were or were not a part of the force that disabled the bradley.

That's a great, big "if." Can murder be justified with something as limp as "we didn't know or sure that they weren't insurgents"? This attack took place three hours after the original exchange, and it stands to reason that the insurgents high-tailed it out of there once the Americans withdrew... that's how guerilla warfare works. No weapons were evident, and an RPG is pretty hard to conceal. So in all likelihood, while some of the people there may have hated America, it is unlikely that any of them were armed reistance fighters.

As I said before, I don't think the pilots were killing out of hatred, they just did something unspeakably stupid, and the military's casual disregard for the lives of Iraqi citizens means that no one will be held responsible. And that is fucked up.

[tw]

Originally Posted by tw

Even if Iraqis were only looting the Bradley, still is no reason to missile those people.

Originally Posted by lookout123

yes it would be. you absolutely do not let vital equipment, especially communications equipment fall into enemy hands. end of story.

So we recruit for the insurgents to protect equipment? If the equipment was so vital, then why did soldiers leave it? Why would they abandon vital equipment in a town that supposidely wants American liberators? This event demonstrates a major disconnect. Same disconnect that resulted in thousands of American lives sacrificed in VietNam.

If Iraqis wanted liberation as George Jr has said, then why would soldiers even with 'armor' abandon vital equipment. At a minimum, they could have removed vital stuff. Even tossed a few grenades inside. Soldiers and armor are suffering from increasing insurgency than even 3 months ago. The latter confirmed by other sources and demonstrated by this event. It suggests that administration spin is a lie.

Reporters, private contractors, and other nationals are saying this. Local temper is gently and increasingly becoming more anti-American. When a US helicopter does exactly what Israeli choppers do to Palestinians, then how do things get any better? When we start attacking even Turkmen, then who is left to be American allies? Using a missile to destroy vital equipment on streets containing civilians is only justified if the streets are full of unfriendlies. Obviously from the video, there were not masses of armed insurgents. So why would helicopters fire? Do we abandon equipment quickly - hope that choppers can destroy vital equipment later - because anti-American sentiment is that widespread even in Baghdad? Or was this and other events simply acts of cowboy chopper pilots?

No we will not agree because I have long been warning about this Iraqi war. It is proceeding as predicted The expression from the military was "200,000 troops and 2 years". What has changed? The military was apparently correct. Almost 2 years later with insufficient troops and things are worsening.

Some Lie. Others Define a Solution
Until reasons for political violence are removed, then an organized military response is doomed to failure. History says that repeatedly and too often.

These posts were about 1 year ago. Please feel free to demonstrate any positive progress since then in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

UT also posted about 1 year ago in Major Concession
tw, who is here and doesn't speak the language, but listens to reporters who don't speak the language, feels he understands it with precision.

Some details were inaccurate. But please show me, UT, where things got better one year later. Iraq continues to slowly worsen as predicted. Number of insurgents have doubled. Where is a solution? Where is the exit strategy? Where is all this international support? As I predicted, based upon both knowledge and previous experience, we now stew in our own juices.

No we still will not agree because what I said then still applies today. I did not believe a lying president and his "mission accomplished" nonsense. Facts then predicted things will get worse. And so they have. So bad that soldiers even abandon vital equipment in the streets.

I have nothing to apologize for. Iraq is going just as it should considering the lessons of history - ie 1960s Vietnam. lookout123 does not have that perspective. Things are slowly getting worse as insurgents recruit even more soldiers thanks to helicopters firing missiles on civilians and TV reporters. Our Iraqi allies will not even fight - just as in Vietnam. The administration claims these were only isolated incidents or a result of insufficient training? Bull. Its called spin to deceive the American public. Having been here 30+ years ago, the expression is Deja Vue. As noted previously, lookout123, your perspective is not tempered by having lived through these same 'accidents' and listening to your predecessors making the same claims. These problems directly traceable to the president and his administration. No exit strategy. No strategic objective. Reasons for political violence remain. No political solution. Even total ignorance of SzeTsu's 500 BC lesson - Art of War.

We will never agree if you deny these facts. Your perspective will not permit you to admit that both Iraq and Afghanistan are slowly worsening - just like Vietnam. Both wars (Iraq and Vietnam) having been staged on presidential lies. Both wars conducted without a smoking gun. Its called "Making of a Quagmire". It starts with a lying president. When do we recall the movie "Wag the Dog". It applies.

I stand by my comments made so many years previously. What we have today and in lookout123's reponses were predictable. Deja Vue.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few.

They are not really critical of soldiers. The soldiers are in this mess directly due to top management. A situation that will not improve under this administration.

How to support the troops. Eliminate their biggest problem. A president that refuses to provide troops with a workable strategic objective, an exit strategy, or a political solution. What is a soldier suppose to do when the president even lies about this as being a 'war on terror'. Hell. I don't see Al Qaeda or bin Landen in Iraq. What I do see are many people who resent American occupation for good reason. Soldiers placed in a classic 'no win' situation.

Please show me 1+ years after this unilateral invasion - where have things gotten better. Violence and death have increased. Eliminate the myths such as UT's Rape Rooms, WMDs, and aluminum tubes. We are left with an Iraq that will continue to worsen as long as America remains militaristic and intransigent. Ie. solving problems with helicopters and missiles. Support the troops. Given them a leader who actually has a brain instead of an agenda. Unfortunately, just like in Nam, the military becomes a victim of the president's personal agenda.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

I love how people can take the actions of a few people and apply it to a whole group and justify what they generalize to that group as true. These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few. So.. how about you just shut the hell up and give these guys a little respect that they deserve. They are dealing with things that I pray to God that you and I will never have to endure, so the least you can do is not subjigate them to you're unfair generalizations and unneccessary attacks.

Yeah, don't you just hate that? I hate that too! I hate it when people take one morsel of information and blow it out of proportion. Makes my skin crawl! It would appear the little rolleyes icon totally slipped by you. Maybe I should have used this one instead? If I had said "SOME of them get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners" would you have felt better? It'd be more accurate, I suppose.

I do give the Boys and Girls the respect they deserve when they deserve it. I have plenty of military in my family so I'm huzzahing for them and their companies left and right. Respect is given where respect is due and frankly, it's not due for all of them. Wouldn't wanna be in their place, of course, but that's a different can o' beans.