Today Russia, tomorrow the UK?

[jaguar]

I believe that. You've consistently displayed more concern for the interaction of political and mercantile forces than for people.

I'm not sure if that's meant to be a condemnation or merely an observation but yes. I think the best way to look after people is to look at what the threats are and deal with them, not get tied up in irrelevent emotive arguments.

it still points to Islam.

But here's where semantics become important. Is Islam the driving force, or is Islam merely the outlet for that force. All extreme movements work by channelling hatred and anger at something, I honestly don't see too much difference, structural issues aside, between the nazi movement and Islamic fascism. Both work by taking a whole lot of pissed off people and giving them targets and justifications. Lots of varied reasons to be pissed, from personal to geopolitical, one joining force. Lots of these 'linked to al-queda' groups are linked by no more than common ideology. While I firmly believe if you remove the sources of that anger, many and varied as they are, the resulting movement will die all by itself. If however, you think that Islam itself is the force, look at it from a different perspective - why is this form is Islam suddenly so successful?

Also, there has been a hue and cry, many influential Muslim figures have waded in, Al Jazeera has pundits who condemn attacks, hell Hamas attacked the kidnappers of the French journalists. Just because it doesn't make the western and particularly the American media doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 'Moderate cleric condemns attacks as against Islam' just doesn't make a good headline doesn't it. I've been to Finsbry Park, that mosque famous for it's 'terrorists', there is a big campaign going on, funded entirely by donations from goers to educate the public about Islam by sending info packs to every public library in the country.

[Catwoman]

Not Yoda I am but Yoda I may be.
(No, I don't get it either, just trying to sound wise. Sorry.)

Bruce, with that I agree (damn this Yoda stuff is addictive). There is a disproportionate amount of Muslims currently dominating the world terrorism 'scene' (dare I call it that). The only common denominator seems to be Islam, as you say. All I will say is that every dog has its day, and just because it is Islam on the affront today; there are many disparate avengers from yesterday and tomorrow.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by jaguar

While I firmly believe if you remove the sources of that anger, many and varied as they are, the resulting movement will die all by itself.

Deserved repeating, jag, as you have picked out the backbone of my point. Thanks.

[Undertoad]

I believe that this source of their anger is their failure as a culture, as every other culture on the planet moves way, way beyond them. Allah was supposed to make them the powerful ones, and they are not, and it is a slow-burn proof that their very basis as a people is faulty and perhaps even their very belief system.

Their honor will not permit them to comprehend the true root causes of their failure as a society, and they are left facing a battle between fundamentalism and reformation. Fundamentalism permits them to claim that the true source of thair failure is the Other, the Jew, the West, the Unbelievers. You can see a similar misplacement of blame in other such hate groups in other countries. KKK = blacks/Jews are at fault... National Front = wogs of all varieties are at fault... and so forth. I believe their misplacement of blame is similar, except that it afflicts the majority of the population instead of just the moronic 1 or 2%..

So if it appears that the current hatred is because American women troops are in Saudi Arabia, take a step back and look at the root causes. The root causes ARE, in a way, their hatred of our "freedom" -- even though they don't SAY it like that, the very fact that women are not subjugated in the West is part of the West's economic and political power, and thus part of the Arabic failure... it's part of what happens when you don't force one half of your creative work force to stay at home and do nothing.

The only way they can escape these root causes is to reform, and join the rest of the civilized world and stop being such a fucked-up honor-based society, otherwise is it just going to get worse and worse and more little fundamentalist groups will get more and more power until the only alternative left, not just for the US but for the rest of the entire world, is to reform them harder with more and different kinds of force. This is not what I might advocate, I don't know, but you can bet it is what the rest of the world will inevitably demand.

[Pi]

In the end, whatever the solution is, it will never be. I believe that the human race can't live without anger, hate, war and so one. It always was like that and it will ever be like that.

[jaguar]

You're telling me chechen rebels are blowing up school kids because of female troops in saudi? Sorry it's a little more complex that that, you're half right, half very wrong. The nazi's weren't a moronic 1 or 2% either. The factor is what turns the majority of a population at least burying their heads in the sand. There is a significant cultural problem but that's deeply linked to political stagnation, political power has long been linked to happiness of a population. Some governments used extreme Islam is keep close hold on the population, namely Saudi Arabia and Egypt, in a sense indoctrinating people in a similar way to Nazi Germany, the outcome there isn't too surprising. There is however a growing Islamic campaign aimed at bringing down the Saudi government, we are hearing piss all about regular firefights and attacks on the government. It's nothing to do with our freedom, it's to do with their lack of freedom. As for the honour based society, I'm not so sure. Look into Sharia banking, I find it very, very interesting, if I can, I'll consider opening an account in one of the new UK sharia-compliant banks.

How the fuck do you reform someone with force? That's like placating someone with a baseball bat, either you make them more pissed off or you kill them.

[DanaC]

If someone held a school full of children hostage in the UK my response would I think be much the same as my response to the Russian school was. My response is two fold. First I am appalled at the situation and my feelings obviously run to the parents and also the children. Running alongside that would be the question, why would someone do this?

When the IRA had their bomb campaigns running on the mainland it was a source of worry. I lived near Manchester when that bomb went off. I walked past the damaged buildings when I went shopping in the city and everyone was nervous about Christmas shopping in major cities. Even in the larger towns like the I lived in had their share of scares and incidents. I spent a year working at a clothes store and recall vividly us having to evacuate the shopping centre on three seperate occassions because of bomb scares.

usually when the IRA bombed they gave warnings and chose the less busy times of the day to minimise casualties. But things go wrong and something went wrong one day in Warrington ( another town I feel connected to because I have relatives there) and a bomb went off early killing a young lad of 12. Didnt kill him outright, tore his face off and he died 12 hours later.

His father became one of the leading voices in the peacemovement. He has liased with men who have been involved in a terrorist war which killed his only son.

If one of my loved ones was killed or maimed bby terrorists would i still hold to the principles I espouse here? Or would vengeance stop my desire for understanding. I dont know. I would like to think I might have the courage that man had.

[DanaC]

I love it. A nation which is content to hand down death sentences to children in capital cases and theyre the civilised world?

[Undertoad]

Look into Sharia banking, I find it very, very interesting, if I can, I'll consider opening an account in one of the new UK sharia-compliant banks.

Ask if you can hand over your initial deposit to a woman... especially one who didn't have her clit cut off at age 6.

[Troubleshooter]

I went looking through the quran a little, to see what I could see and ran across these passages:

I'm not sure of the context of the placement, but it is in 4: The Women

88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.

Am I wrong or does this say that an unbeliever is an unbeliever at the will of Allah and thusly not to be converted?

89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Ok, so don't try to convert them, and don't be friends with them because Allah might convert them himself one day. Until that day though, kill as many as you like.

90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

This one is a bit confusing but I read it as saying that if they don't mess with you don't mess with them?

Now, IIRC the bible has equivalent passages. Wouldn't it seem that the only reason that people lash out from an ideological basis is because that is all that they feel they have?

It's hard to imagine Pat Robertson putting down his remote control and his cheetos and saying, "Damn those muslims it's time to go to war." It's hard to justify the sacrifice of all of the secular luxuries that we have as a society yet they have very little to give up.

In a nutshell, they have nothing to lose. We do.

[jaguar]

Female genital mutilation is only really prevalent in Africa and is practically unknown in the Middle east. It also has sweet fuck all to do with Islam, in fact it's practised in many Christian areas of Africa as well. As for women, many do work, hell in Iran many are probably an better shot than you are. Boy doesn't it suck when you can't fall back on stereotypes anymore? Might even have to look at the real situation and notice that.....oh my god it's not the same everywhere.

Bullseye. It's columns like that that keep me buying the guardian.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Why?

Because western civilization, which we (most Cellarites) enjoy the fruits of, developed along with Christianity. Contemporary Islam has no such fruit. That said, fundementalists like Bush do not appreciate liberal western society and its focus on individual rights and responsibilities. Mostly though, I said it to head off our right wingers who always try to claim God for their side, reasoning that if they know God they know his will. My fellow Catholics know that the Pope opposed the War in Iraq while some of the bishops in the states tried to obsolve individual Catholic soldiers of responsibility for their actions, shifting it to their leaders. This was a Church failure. We are all responsible for our actions whether we are under arms or not. I may not be the best Catholic, but I have developed that thing which the Church is so good at developing, a conscience. We can fight about the flip side, guilt, another time. (I also carry the gift of sanctimony as I've been reminded a time or two.)

Something I was trying to get at is that one thing that has threatened western civilization for the past century is totalitarianism. The total state has advocates on the left and the right and they are both trying to end the progress of our civilization by controlling the progress of our civilization. The Republicans have jettisoned all their morals on this issue. If only the Democrats had the moral authority to step up.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm not sure if that's meant to be a condemnation or merely an observation but yes.

Observation.

Just because it doesn't make the western and particularly the American media doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I was thinking of the American Islamic community. Sorry, I should have clarified that.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Female genital mutilation is only really prevalent in Africa and is practically unknown in the Middle east. It also has sweet fuck all to do with Islam, in fact it's practised in many Christian areas of Africa as well.

So you say, so some others say differently.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia...cumcision.html

Apparently it's not in the Qu'ran but Mohammed taught it.

As for women, many do work, hell in Iran many are probably an better shot than you are. Boy doesn't it suck when you can't fall back on stereotypes anymore? Might even have to look at the real situation and notice that.....oh my god it's not the same everywhere.

It sure isn't.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Griff

Because western civilization, which we (most Cellarites) enjoy the fruits of, developed along with Christianity. Contemporary Islam has no such fruit.

I don't know if that's as much an issue of Islam/Christianity as it is of certain cultures.