Getting Ugly in Russia

[OnyxCougar]

"Giving in" to terrorists tells other filth that "Hey, it worked for them, it will work for us."

I've thought about what would happen if the US for example just laid waste to entire cities (like Najaf) in order to send the message of not to fuck with us, but then I realize that actions like that make us just as bad as the shitpiles we're fighting.

I think sm is completely right with his view on moral hindrance.

[Happy Monkey]

It all depends on whether you're willing to see the enemy as human. All too often, a war goes on long enough that one or both sides lose that perspective. Nothing dehumanizes one's enemies more than a thirst for vengeance.

This isn't a justification of the behavior of the people who commit atrocities, but it is a predictable outcome. Whoever creates the situation is culpable in addition to - not instead of - the perpetrator.

[jaguar]

Well since we're all feeling uppity about 'human filth' and the like, maybe take a gander at what has been going on in Chechnya for getting on to a decade, the murders, torture, brutal pack rapes, the actions of the Russian army make Abu Ghraib look like a funpark, when you brutalize a people like that you shouldn't be too shocked when it comes back to bite you in the arse, hard.

If you're wondering why those pictures don't make the media, the last reporter I know of who tried got shot in the face by russian soldiers for his trouble, all his equipment strangely went missing too.

Media control is a funny thing and the illusions you can spin are powerful, in this, mighty Russia somehow, despite the facts of the matter is the 'victim'. Same applies with Israel.

[lookout123]

I didn't say Russia was some innocent victim. I said that individuals who think walking into areas crowded with civilians with designs on blowing them up are filth. it doesn't matter if they are russian, chechen, or australian they would still be filth in my eyes.

[Slothboy]

The trouble is that I'm sitting here at my computer, several timezones away from all of this. I'm sure Russians are capable of atrocities and the Chechnyan's certainly deserve justice. But I don't know the full story from either side. What I do know is that holding children hostage is wrong.

This little girl had nothing to do with what is happening in Chechnya. It is never ok to involve her in events like this. Her parents probably didn't have anything to do with it either. Thanks to the terrorists, I am on the side of the Russians. That is the thing I don't get. If you kill innocents like that it makes me want to stop you at all costs, not sympathise with you.

You know what else? I didn't bomb Hiroshima. As far as I know nobody that made that decision is in power in the United States today. Maybe we could stop having that flung in our faces sometime soon? That'd be swell.

[DanaC]

"what is to stop him from discarding the accepted rules of war, like his opponents did, and commence firebombing the city centers of chechnya one at a time. "

Too late they already did something very similar.

Radar I do not support the actions of palestinian suicide bombers. I am a pacifist I believe in non violent approach wherever possible. I also however am able to seperate my abhorrence for the actions and take a look at both sides. Since so much of the media portrays these issues with scant regard for one side and airbrushing the other that leads me all to oftenhaving to put ( *smiles* having, of course merely referring to my own self imposed compulsion :P) the point of view of the unreported side in a conflict. The side whose suffering didnt make the world blink let alone act. When their suffering is so categorically ignored and their towns unfamiliar to us until they produce a suicide bomber, I feel in some ways there has been a crime of complicity perpetrated by the world community; a crime which has helped to create the envrionment these atrocities occur in. If I heard nothing in the media about the suffering of the Israeli bomb victims, if most of what I saw was arab propoganda which ignored the very real fears of the Israeli man on the street, glossing over every suicide bomb and reporting in detail every last assassinated Hamas leader's death;if i then came onto the cellar and found that many people seemed unwilling to accept a parity of culpability between the two sides, worse they were insisting on reducing the Israelis to less than human because of their methods, then I would likely find myself arguing their fears.

I do think there is a danger when we refuse to understand people. I dont condone what is happening in Russia, but we have to see this event in the context of a tapestry of other events. To do otherwise is to reduce our understanding of the gestalt and that can only lead to a society less capable of responding in the most effective way possible.

As to the school siege....This is clearly a step too far. It's many steps too far. Some things are of course morally repugnant to most civilised people and naturally I have a very low opinion of the people who are holding childer hostage. That however doesnt prevent me from trying to seek an understanding of what they are trying to achieve and why they have chosen such methodology. It's lazy to just dismiss them as lunatics or psycopaths or simply evil. It's laziness which leads ( imo) to a complacency of thought which is a weakening of actual defenses in society in favour of percieved defences.

It occurs to me I may not have made myself entirely clear in my first post. When I was talking about the Black Widows and disagreeing with Lookout, I was not referring to the school siege. We dont kow who is responsible for that. My own feeling is that it is not the Black Widow. It seems unlikely that women who have lost sons and husbands would focus their attention on babes in arms and mothers like themselves. It would be a real move away from their usual modus operandi. Might be them, but I doubt it. I have a real sympathy for these women. I have sympathy and empathy for what they have suffered. I am inclined to think this siege is being perpetrated by a much more extreme group within the Chechen fight back.

[Happy Monkey]

And that's the attitude (that of the Russians) which breeds this sort of thing.

[DanaC]

"The obvious solution is to exterminate them, and end their silly games. Don't think for a moment the Russians can't do that. History has proven they are both capable and willing to exterminate millions, if they only perceive them to be a problem"

I think that pretty much says it all. Why strive for understanding which could lead to resolution when you can just exterminate the enemy ? An interesting moral highground

[xoxoxoBruce]

Moral high grounds get you killed. You can have the moral high ground, I'll take the AK74 and put flowers on your grave. Do you think you can tell these suicide bombers "There, there Dear, I feel your pain."? Be my guest and you will be feeling their pain. :p

[DanaC]

No Bruce they arent looking for palliatives and they arent seeking words of comfort. What they want is a simple and achievable thing. They want their statehood, they want their population not to be terrorised year after year. If all we see is the terrorist and his bombbelts then we are not looking at the picture as a whole. We have to see what the struggle is and whether, at it's core it is a reasonable demand ( the unreasonable tactics employed in achieving that notwithstanding)

The Chechens have made reasonable demands of Russia and Russia has responded unreasonably. In response to this the Chechens again made reasonable demands. Russia again responded unreasonably. Now a small number of Chechen rebels have begun to act unreasonably.

Obviously if I was in any way involved with that situation, if I was for instance a Russian mother whose child was facing a second night of the siege I very much doubt I would be able to see the Chechen's point of view. Here many miles away i have the luxury of being able to take an objective look at the situation.

Interestingly, whilst there hasnt been a massive outcry ( that I know of) from the Russian people over their government's treatment of the Chechens, the Chechens themselves are staging protests to object to their rebels' treatment of Russian children.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The "Black Widows" (see Lookout, names eliminate a lot of descriptions) are seeking revenge, to kill civilians, kill women and children. They are no better than rabid animals and should be exterminated.
As for letting the rest of the Chechens break away, I think the Russians have made their position quite clear. And if Arizona tried it, they would get the same from Washington.

[lookout123]

let me be perfectly clear dana. i mean absolutely crystal clear.

i don't give 2 fucks about what type of suffering a person who chooses to murder innocent women and children has endured in their lives. it is a decision to destroy the innocent. pure and simple. couching it in terms of they are trying "to achieve a goal" is morally repugnant.

and i haven't followed it too closely so feel free to give me an objective answer to this - aren't the russians fighting to keep a portion of their country from seceding?

[DanaC]

A portion of what used to be the Soviet Republic but which considers itself seperate and was seperate before it was incorporated into Russia.

Dont get me wrong Lookout. On a personal level I abhor what is being done ( by both sides) however there is also a political analasys to be had as well as a moral one.

[bluesdave]

There is little doubt of Russia's guilt in their past treatment of Chechnya, but now the Chechens are losing the moral battle. As Lookout has said, you can never justify terrorism against civilian targets, no matter what has preceded it.

The only hope that Chechnya has, is to back off, and basically concede defeat, as painful as that will be for them. They have to accept that they belong to Russia, and forget about their independence. I know that Dana and Jag will say that I would feel very differently if I had been subjected to the same treatment as the Chechens, but they have to draw a line, and say "no more, we give up". The alternative is more of what they have been receiving, and eventually leading to Bruce's solution. They have to realise that they cannot win - ever - and that their only hope is surrender. Otherwise, they have no future.

[Trilby]

i don't belong here in this thread because I am first and foremost a whimp who wants the approval of ALL the Cellar Dwellars--so, it is with great trepidation that I say this:

I have no idea what is going on in Chechenya (if I even spelled it right)--BUT! I know that it is wrong to threaten children. It is wrong to strike non-military targets. It wins you no sympathy for your cause; indeed, makes you look insane in the eyes of the world. It makes you look like a lunatic fringe. Nobody can relate to that.