Sticky Situation

[jane_says]

Even if she had the money for a lawyer, even if getting back to the US in time were no problem, even if she had moved to St. Louis, for shit's sake, what kind of parent has she been to this child, at least recently? What purpose would be served by a judge allowing her joint legal custody, or even visitation? For Christ's sake, if she can't leave her new man long enough to fight for her son, the kid is right where he should be, IMO. I can't imagine not doing whatever was necessary, including whoring myself on the streets of Croatia, to get "a month's woth of grocery money" to get this taken care of. I have, obviously, no dog in this race, but sounds to me like she just wants to be able to breeze in and out of this kid's life whenever it suits her international travel plans and social life.

Further, I see no reason to mention that this guy is living in his parents' home with his children, other than to make him look bad. Also not gonna fly. Lots of divorced women do that and as far as I'm concerned if his family is willing to help raise this kid, that's more than his mother is doing and the father's entire family should be praised. This woman should thank her lucky stars the father is more responsible than to take off and abandon his children for some woman on another continent, and be delighted that her child is being cared for by his dad, and other family members, rather than tossed into foster care.

IANAL, but I would think that leaving the country constitutes abandonment in most cases. Sounds like this kid would be better off in his current situation than going through some ridiculous, vindictive custody bullshit.

FTR, yes, I'd say the exact same things if it were a man in this situation. A parent is a parent is a parent, and this woman has not been parenting.

[OnyxCougar]

She has no intentions of playing the "bounce the child back and forth game" with Greg. She has no problem with him having sole physical custody. She just wants joint legal custody. She doesn't even mind the child support, she is aware she should be paying him to help support Dylan, but she doesn't have the means right now.

She's coming back to the states for good in October/November regardless of the divorce. She was planning on coming back ANYWAY. What we're trying to accomplish, if we can at this point, is to get back before the hearing, so that (1) she can try to get joint legal custody and (2) she has the ability to get a job to pay the child support.

This isn't a physical custody battle. Dylan will remain with his father until Kelle is stable and ready and able to care for him. Again, physical custody is *not* the issue. And she *is* leaving her new man to go fight for her son, the problem here is money to get home. If I had it, I'd send her the money and she'd fly home tomorrow. I don't think "whoring herself on the streetcorner in Croatia" is going to look very good at this point, in fact, I think it would make a bad situation worse.

Yes, she's made poor choices. She's trying to fix it. No, she hasn't been the best mom in the world. She's trying to get her shit together and be a better person, and by extension, a better mom.

[wolf]

Oh, so what your friend is planning is ... "Well, it's inconvenient for me to have any part in raising my child at this time, so he can stay with his dad, but when I feel like I'm "ready" I can walk in and demand possession of him any time I want." Shame of it is that the courts may well agree with such a thing, since being the mommy is 9/10 of the custody law.

Yeah. It's criticism. Flat out. Unconstructive, if the meaning of that word is "doesn't solve the problem to my girlfriend's satisfaction."

And I'm not working from any illusions regarding dad's effectiveness as a parent at this point. He is, however, there. Any opinions you have of him are colored by your prior relationship.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by wolf

Oh, so what your friend is planning is ... "Well, it's inconvenient for me to have any part in raising my child at this time, so he can stay with his dad, but when I feel like I'm "ready" I can walk in and demand possession of him any time I want." Shame of it is that the courts may well agree with such a thing, since being the mommy is 9/10 of the custody law.

No, not anytime she wants. But she certainly can't do it right now. She knows this.

Yeah. It's criticism. Flat out. Unconstructive, if the meaning of that word is "doesn't solve the problem to my girlfriend's satisfaction."

Well criticism isn't the reason I posted. I posted to try to get some ideas on how to make a bad situation better.

And I'm not working from any illusions regarding dad's effectiveness as a parent at this point. He is, however, there. Any opinions you have of him are colored by your prior relationship.

No, it's colored by the fact I lived with the man and know how he parents.

Look, no one is diputing she made a mistake. I posted her for advise, not a bunch of people telling me how much she fucked up. Thanks. We got that part. We know. She fucked up. Thanks. That sure helps alot. Appreciate that.

[jane_says]

Whoring herself, running off to Croatia and abandoning her child, whatever - with any luck the judge in this case won't care what she's been doing, just that's she's done nothing to parent her child since she's been gone. If she can't afford a month's worth of groceries to work on this, and is not employed, she obviously hasn't been helping support this child financially. The emotional support part is more than obvious. As for "getting her shit together", marvelous for her. I wish her all the best, I truly, truly mean that. HOWEVER. A parent doesn't keep a child waiting in the wings legally until such time that he or she is able/willing to be a part of said child's life. If she were truly concerned for this child, and considered the father a subpar parent, she would have never left the country. Period. Parents do not do that. They don't even entertain such foolishness. The time for her to "get her shit together" (in regards to parenting this child, anyway) is long past.

[jane_says]

Onyx, after doing some thinking, I realize that I shouldn't have been so harsh with you. I still mean everything I directed toward your friend and her situation. However, in recalling many of my "friends" over the years, and one in particular, I know how it can be to feel like you need to defend someone when everyone else in downing him or her. I have housed, gone to court with, bailed out, fed, fought and fought over, you name it - one friend in particular. For years - we were very close friends since 3rd grade. I still love this guy dearly, but after so many years I realized that he's now an adult (we're 29) and it's time for him to fend for himself. It's been very painful for me to distance myself from him. I love him dearly and miss him badly. But the self-destructiveness and inadvertent destruction of everyone close to him wasn't worth it anymore. I no longer answer the phone for him. I am still friends with his brother, although not as close as K and I once were.

It's hard to cut off friends who screw up their lives. But sometimes, no matter how sad the story, the happy and/or healthy ending never comes. We can't help people who continually set themselves up to fail and it sounds like that's what your friend has done. You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved, regardless of their protests to the contrary - you can't force someone to behave decently.

I am truly sorry if what I said came across as a personal attack on you. I empathize with your situation. I just don't condone your friend's behavior, just like the behavior of my own friend.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by jane_says

Onyx, after doing some thinking, I realize that I shouldn't have been so harsh with you. I still mean everything I directed toward your friend and her situation. However, in recalling many of my "friends" over the years, and one in particular, I know how it can be to feel like you need to defend someone when everyone else in downing him or her. I have housed, gone to court with, bailed out, fed, fought and fought over, you name it - one friend in particular. For years - we were very close friends since 3rd grade. I still love this guy dearly, but after so many years I realized that he's now an adult (we're 29) and it's time for him to fend for himself. It's been very painful for me to distance myself from him. I love him dearly and miss him badly. But the self-destructiveness and inadvertent destruction of everyone close to him wasn't worth it anymore. I no longer answer the phone for him. I am still friends with his brother, although not as close as K and I once were.

It's hard to cut off friends who screw up their lives. But sometimes, no matter how sad the story, the happy and/or healthy ending never comes. We can't help people who continually set themselves up to fail and it sounds like that's what your friend has done. You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved, regardless of their protests to the contrary - you can't force someone to behave decently.

I am truly sorry if what I said came across as a personal attack on you. I empathize with your situation. I just don't condone your friend's behavior, just like the behavior of my own friend.

I do appreciate the apology, and I was starting to feel rather attacked there, but I've taken a deep breath and I'm better now.

There was a time when I fucked up my life so bad that I had to stay with friends, and had those friends not stood by me, things could have turned out alot differently, for the worse.

I don't make apologizes for her, and I let her make her own mistakes. I can't help her financially right now, but what I can do is encourage her to make better decisions, maybe come up with things she hadn't thought of (and one of the reasons I posted here was to see what things *I* hadn't thought of).

Fact is, it's a shitty situation brought on by poor choices. Again, something we already know. And she *wants* to until the rope Jim, that's exactly the point. She has a rope to untie. And as her friend, I cannot stand around and let her dangle. Yeah, her choices sucked. But you live and you learn. As long as she learns from it, I'll be there standing by her. I'm not going to abandon her when she needs me most.

We all make mistakes. Some are bigger than others. Not everyone will make the same ones.

Does that mean she doesn't deserve a second chance?

[Clodfobble]

Not that I condone what your friend is doing, but... if all she's worried about is the backlogged child support stacking up until she gets back to America and gets a job--they won't put her in jail for a few months of missed child support. We don't have debtor's prison in this country. If he's really active in seeking it, they might start putting liens on property she owns, etc. but chances are good it'll just add up until she's able to start paying it.

Secondly, getting legal joint guardianship is damned unlikely for her now, but she can always try to go back and get that in the future. Frankly, it's not going to be worth anything to her anyway... all it gets her is the right to attend school functions (hell of a commute from another state,) the right to instruct him in her religion when he's in her physical custody (never,) the right to consent to marriage (obsolete in this day and age,) the right to file a lawsuit on the child's behalf, and a few other silly little things. About the only one she might care about is the right to have access to medical records.

My advice: tell your friend not to panic. File the paperwork she needs to file to get the divorce finalized, try to get legal representation in absentia so she doesn't somehow get saddled with child support that's more than she can pay (the $100-something figure sounds reasonable, assuming he sticks with it,) then get over here and start paying her child support ASAP.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

My advice: tell your friend not to panic. File the paperwork she needs to file to get the divorce finalized, try to get legal representation in absentia so she doesn't somehow get saddled with child support that's more than she can pay (the $100-something figure sounds reasonable, assuming he sticks with it,) then get over here and start paying her child support ASAP.

Thanks, Clob. I'm not asking any of you to approve of what she's done, I just wanted ideas and suggestions and thoughts (like this one) about how to fix the problem. It's not going to be easy for anyone involved. No one expects a fast, easy fix for this. It simply isn't going to happen, and we recognize that.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... if all she's worried about is the backlogged child support stacking up until she gets back to America and gets a job--they won't put her in jail for a few months of missed child support. We don't have debtor's prison in this country.

Actually, missed child support payments is the exception to that one ... it's certainly more customary for the deadbeat dads to get sent to the Big House and to work for the county, with their prison wage garnished by the Domestic Relations people, but moms go too.

[lumberjim]

kelle made a mistake by leaving before it was final. she needs to correct it by getting her ass on a plane, and getting back here before the hearing. mistakes can cost you, and when the stakes are as high as they are here, you must do whatever you can to correct them, or suffer the consequences. if she tries to do this by remote control, it is indicitave of her commitment level. in other words, if she doesnt get back here, she deserves to lose the kid. sounds shitty of me to say that, and i think some have said similar things, but, its pretty simple really.

why the fuck did she go to a foreign country with no job? is love that blind? goddamn. she is totally reliant on this croatian guy? cant he fly her ass back here to deal with it, then? amazing.

the thing is, OC, that it is a little late for advice. i think thats where wolf is with this.

you see, i tied this rope around my neck, because i just love rope, and then i stood on this chair (its a really high chair, and i wont be able to climb down by myself) and then someone tied the other end of the rope off while i wasnt looking, and kicked the chair out. so now i'm swinging by my neck. what should i do?

kelle needs to climb up the fucking rope, and untie it.

sorry if this doesnt help. im sure its nothing you havent thought of yourself.

[99 44/100% pure]

All said and done, your friend needs to respond to the divorce decree within the 30 days. The good news is she doesn't need an attorney, nor does she have to appear in court to do this. She will, however, need to come up with the money to notarize her response. All the other cockamamie plans (such as calling the judge -- a major gaffe!) would waste time, money and any good will the court may harbor toward her before facts are disclosed in this case.

To respond to the filing, she needs merely to write a letter, whose format she can get from the court clerk where the papers were filed (instructions may even be included with the papers she received). In general, she needs to cite the items she is not on agreement with, and her proposed language for those items. In addition, it would help her case to write up a BRIEF (and it's called a brief because that's what it should be -- 1 to 2 pages AT MOST).

It should include:
1) an opening statement--an introduction explaining--in two short sentences-- the current problem (that she wants to retain legal custody while not in proximity to the child; and hopes to eventually regain joint physical custody);
2) a chronology (best way to keep to the point is to do it in a chart form) showing dates, events, and why they occurred;
3) an explanation of what 'remedies' she would like (deferral of child support, granting of joint legal custody, possibilty to review physical custody award when she returns to US).

All of this gets notarized where ever she is and is sent to the correct address BEFORE THE DEADLINE. She should make sure that anyone who is REQUIRED to get a copy (like her husband and/or his attorney) get their copies on time, as well. She might consider getting copies of his filing and her response to you and your dad, as well, in case one of you can do something to help her.

Some other points:
I believe, from what you tell us here, that your friend's behavior is reprehensible, and certainly will not help her case (especially regarding eventual physical custody).

It would take a number of slow, arduous administrative steps for your friend to end up in jail for non-payment of child support. In most states where this is a possiblity, this occurs long after the state has begun making payment on the delinquent parent's behalf, and then tried to collect from that parent. Parents who reasonably cannot pay are not often jailed; that would defeat the purpose. Jail is used to modify the behavior of a parent who can pay, but won't.

If she's not working, why is she hanging around in Croatia, anyway? Can her future hubby not get into the United States unless he is with her? Does she need to divorce and remarry before she comes back to the states? Seems like a better option for her would be to come back right away, move in with her mother and two of 3 kids, get ANY job, and start looking like a responsible parent.

Personally, she seems like a 'serial abandoner' -- she left the first 2 kids with mom (before the whole thing with hubby and kid #3?), then leaves a one-year-old with someone she's trying to tell the court is essentially an unfit parent. The kid has been without mom longer than with? Wouldn't it be upsetting to have her pop back into Dylan's life?

$115 is an unusually small amount of child support, even if she was just paying half or a third. These days, the courts usually have a statewide formula for what it takes to raise a kid, then look at both parents' salaries and charge each of them proportionately. Who has custody has no bearing on the amounts determined by the courts (in general).

I'd wish your friend good luck, but she sounds like a total ninny. On the other hand, I know from your posts that you have also had some outrageous events happen in your life, some due to bad judgement, some due to bad luck; yet you seem to be coming out of it OK. I guess my best wishes are reserved for the kids.


edited for spelling

[busterb]

he was cheating on us with us.
Might I just ask what this is about? BB

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by busterb

he was cheating on us with us.
Might I just ask what this is about? BB

He was telling both of us we were the only one he was seeing. I don't understand your confusion. He was cheating on her with me and me with her.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

He was telling both of us we were the only one he was seeing. I don't understand your confusion. He was cheating on her with me and me with her.

His confusion is that he is not aware that you and Kelle were not acqainted at the time of the cheating and did not meet till afterwards (as a result of discovering the cheating). I had to go back and figure it out too.