The Draft

[tw]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
All that being said, I dont know if his unit is indicative of the trend as a whole, but if it is, the rats are fleeing the ship

I shared coffee with a man whose son was then a Captain in the 10th Mountain. His son was pissed, in part, because 10th Mountain did not after bin Laden, et al. He said that most every Captain would be joining him; leave at the end of their tour.

Just under one year later, we know he was correct. This government did not go after a 'smoking gun' enemy - bin Laden. Now that we did not deal with a real and justified war, about one-half of Afghanistan is no longer in friendly control. The Taliban is slowly gaining more assistance from the people who never got the major rebuilding promised by America.

Instead of first winnnig the real war, we abandoned victory to attack a mythical enemy. Eventually even the troops begin to see through the lie. Same as in Vietnam. It took almost a decade of lies before even US troops realized we were the enemy in Vietnam. "We have met the enemy and he is us".

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
The draft is not coming back.

Which is eactly what richlevy said:

Considering recent developments, and comments from both Democrats and Republicans, I am now bumping that up to %25. The only unknown is the war in Iraq and the time and manpower required.

US Military has already said that the world's largest military now must to increase troop strength by 20% to meet current political demands. No doubt about that. There are 130,000 troops and 20,000 hired guns in Iraq. US generals still say they need 200,000 troops - as made evident by bridges now destroyed on major and necessary highways. Compare this to the 30,000 troops that Rumsfeld said would be required at this point. Even McNamara did not lie this much - when we had to reinstate the draft.

[be-bop]

QUOTE Originally posted by Undertoad

The draft is not coming back.

Oh no.Whats all this then.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1710

[Undertoad]

$28 million? $28 M won't pay for the server to hold the website for the draft. Don't sweat the bureaucrats, they can do whatever they like but it doesn't mean there's a plot afoot until there are Senate subcommittees starting up.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Undertoad
They could extend out their age and other limits, increase the pay a bit, and probably get enough people in one day. The military is no longer interested in unwilling soldiers that require in-depth training, and so you will see nobody in the military advocating a draft.

But do you think the military has the decision in their hands? It appears in this administration the politicians are running the war, rather than the military.

[DanaC]

There are more police serving the city of London ...( a peaceful city whose residents generally are too busy being ordinary to get into much trouble and where very few people own anything more lethal than a swiss army knife).... than there are soldiers serving in Iraq, a place where a significant portion of the population are unhappy with this situation and unlike the happy londoners are often armed in the region's usual fashion with ak's and rpgs.

In years to come when Hollywood are making teary eyes gritty films only just beginning to tackle the thorny problem of the viet...I do beg your pardon....the Iraqi war....(or should I say Wars) I hope we all remember what it was like at the time, right now. Bear witness to what is being done in our names. All the glorious rhetoric and the shining patriotism of the Right will not save this war from history's scrutiny.

I do wonder, rather sadly, if by the time many of these lads and lasses get to come home;scarred and injured by what they have seen and done;will the people who sent them be so heartsick and embarrassed at what their soldiers have done for them that they will deny their laurels?

[Undertoad]

Best to ask them how they feel about it, rather than to decide on their behalf.

[DanaC]

What who feel about it? The Iraqis who are being occupied? The soldiers who are doing their job? or the millions of people who opposed this war? Or maybe the international community whose laws have been flounted?

Because those soldiers have their own ( very good I am sure) reasons for doing their job is no reason for the people in whose names they fight to stop questioning the motives of those who choose which war they fight.

Incidentally I have read and watched quite a few interviews with returning soldiers in the UK and they are a damn sight more robust than you seem to credit them as being. They are quite able to hold in their heads the two ideas that they were there to do a job and do it well .....and that there may be some argument to say they should never have been there in the first place.

During wars we are all supposed to shy away from suggesting the people at the top of the command chain may be making bad decisions which their soldiers then have to live ( or die) with for fear this in someway denigrates the soldiers themselves. ....Likewise I have had various people intimate that by suggesting that the world has been lied to by the people who wanted to invade Iraq I am somehow painting soldiers as somehow less capable of making a judgement call than the rest of us...Since when did armies choose their assignments?

"Lions led by donkeys" was how the massive losses of Paschendale and the Somme were summed up.

We have been lied to by something rather more sinister than donkeys. The fact that so many soldiers have and had such noble intent in Iraq is testament to the scale and pervasiveness of that lie.

Oh and you want the clear picture of a fight dont ask the combatants they are *not* objective

[Undertoad]

Boo!

[onetrack]

Originally posted by tw
This government did not go after a 'smoking gun' enemy - bin Laden. Now that we did not deal with a real and justified war, about one-half of Afghanistan is no longer in friendly control. The Taliban is slowly gaining more assistance from the people who never got the major rebuilding promised by America.

Instead of first winnnig the real war, we abandoned victory to attack a mythical enemy. Eventually even the troops begin to see through the lie. Same as in Vietnam. It took almost a decade of lies before even US troops realized we were the enemy in Vietnam. "We have met the enemy and he is us".

Glad to see someone recognises the truth about Iraq.

1. Is it not surprising that the rise of extreme fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. leadership, has lead to an exact equal and opposite reaction, of a rise in extreme fundamentalist Muslims in other parts of the world?
I'm not anti-Christian .. far from it .. but I detest those fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. leadership, who lead the U.S. into a ''righteous war" .. based on lies and media manipulation (where are the WMD's?).
A war started on low moral grounds, is a poor starting area, to try and impress anti-Christian forces.

The latest outcry about pictures of military coffins is a classic piece of media manipulation. The woman took pics to show relatives, the care taken with them .. the U.S. leadership doesn't want pics of coffins because it needs to manipulate public opinion. The U.S. leadership is just plain deceitful .. every day of their public lives.

2. The U.S leadership assumes that the war in Iraq is going to be a classic standard war .. but it is anything but that .. it is a classic guerrilla war .. which the U.S. is always poorly set up to fight.
The U.S. military almost always uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut .. with the resultant damage to innocent civilians and generally poor PR with the locals.
The insurgents fight dirty with the lowest tactics known .. and the military can't cope with that. They need standard war tactics to operate.

3. The U.S. leadership assumes .. wrongly .. that the Iraqi people will meekly accept a Western Democracy style of Govt as soon as their current dictator is removed.
There is a poor understanding in the U.S. leadership of how these people operate. This is a tribal religious culture with their religion paramount.
They will all stop killing members of the other sects for the few minutes it takes to say their compulsory prayers .. and then get back into the killing .. just because the other sect has a slightly different, but reputedly highly blasphemous view, that cannot be tolerated.

As soon as the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the Iraqis will go back to bludgeoning each other until a new dictator appears to brutalise all but one sect .. his .. and then a type of stability will re-appear .. and the U.S. Govt will applaude the stability and offer financial assistance to the new dictator ..

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4016

The sad part to me, is that 600+ American soldiers have been sacrificed in a bid for personal glory .. without one iota of identifiable gain, to the U.S. or coalition countries.

As someone has said .. if it were not for American political and corporate greed, Iraq could be left to dissolve into the obscurity it deserves.

And if you don't think I know what I'm talking about .. I can assure you, as a Aussie front line participant in a previously badly instigated, badly run, and unnecessary war .. by poor quality U.S. leaders .. I do. I still wear the scars.

[Undertoad]

It's way too early to figure out the level of gain or loss.

Let stuff play itself out.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Undertoad
It's way too early to figure out the level of gain or loss.

Let stuff play itself out.

Well at 1/4 trillion dollars and 700 lives, I'd say we're certainly adding to the 'loss' column. Even if the violence subsides, the US has no credibility with Iraqis, most of the Middle East, most of Europe, and about half of it's own citizens when it comes to the Iraq war and reconstruction.

Phrases like 'crusade' and 'bring it on' from our commander-in-chief didn't go a long way towards convincing anyone of our dispassionate deliberations in deciding to invade Iraq.

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
It's way too early to figure out the level of gain or loss.

Let stuff play itself out.

You continued with same claim when even American advanced physics labs were said the aluminum tubes were not appropriate for centrifuges - for making WMD. Despite fact after fact that suggested this administration was lying, you continued to say facts would eventally prove you right - even citing a standard finish on those tubes as proof those advanced physics labs were wrong. At what point do we destroy America before you say, "Maybe it was a mistake"?

They asked George Jr the same type of question in his news conference. Could he cite one point where he made a mistake? After a long and painful minute, he decided he could not even cite one. After how many lies; undermining American science; the outting of a CIA agent; the lies about missing W on keyboards; the destruction of the Oslo Accords (as a Norwegian foreign minister even predicted); the destruction of good relations with virtually every nation in the world; a stagnant econony only aggrevated by mythical tax cuts, more complicated tax laws, and excessive and still not reported spending (you have not even seen how big the Iraq bill is going to be); ignoring outright warning of an attack (at least three separate warnings with no presidential response) that became 11 September; and even letting bin Laden run free: George Jr cannot think of one mistake!!!!

I can understand George Jr not being able to admit he was wrong. George Jr is driven by politically inspired rhetoric and dogma - an agenda attributed to the vulcans. "Screw the facts. We already have an agenda."

Last time I looked, UT was not a vulcan. IOW UT, at some point you are going to have to admit the war was wrong from the very beginning. It was even created on lies. And then the most glaring missing part - no smoking gun. So where are the mythical WMD, the rape rooms, threats to our regional friends, and mythical alunimun tubes for nuclear weapons. Where pray tell are reasons to justify a Pearl Harbor type attack on another sovereign nation?

After one year of leaving the people who know how to make Iraq work completely unemployeed and recruited by insurgents - because doctors, engineers, bureaucrats, soldiers, and police had to be member of the Baath party - suddenly even Paul Bremmer today is willing to admit he has made a major mistake (the resulting mess obvious). And still UT, you say, "Don't worry. Be happy. It will all work out"? Did the aluminum tubes, mythical uranium from Niger, and the missing Ws on White House keyboards not yet teach you something about this administration? How bad does something have to get before you say, "maybe we have a problem"?

[xoxoxoBruce]

a Pearl Harbor type attack

Say what? They didn't know we were coming? When you get rolling with a good logical argument, then throw in something like that, it undermines your credibility.

[Undertoad]

IOW UT, at some point you are going to have to admit the war was wrong from the very beginning. It was even created on lies. And then the most glaring missing part - no smoking gun. So where are the mythical WMD, the rape rooms, threats to our regional friends, and mythical alunimun tubes for nuclear weapons.

Bringing up the rape rooms is a tactical mistake by you, tw, because in your scenario the rape rooms are necessary to control and subjugate the population.

And didn't you see the rape rooms? I did. Did you see the other torture videos? Did you see the guy getting his tongue cut out with pliers and diagonal cutters? Maybe your sources aren't really paying attention.

As for the tubes, I recall an exchange where you angrily claimed that other purchased tubes wouldn't be used to create longer missiles... longer missiles which were found, tipped with chemical warheads. And not found by the UN inspectors. And which constitute a threat to our regional friends.

The war will be the wrong decision if the country does not become a successful and (fairly) Democratic nation. That is my main criterion. Although I'm not a Vulcan, I can easily see the benefit of resetting the middle east and why, if it works, it is the solution that spills the least blood. That's why we have to wait to see how it all plays out.