Candidate Differances

Bruce's insinuation is that we'd be speaking German, of course.

There <b>are</b> just wars. Israel's Six Day War was just, for instance. As was our effort to stop Nazi Germany.

[Chewbaccus]

Our effort to stop Nazi Germany that we spent two years attempting to ignore and postpone? Yes we did something valuable in stopping Hitler, but if you think for one second that it was an entirely unselfish act, my friend, you need to sit down and think for a moment.

And the Six-Day War? You mean this Six-Day War -->

After a period of relative calm, border incidents between Israel and Syria, Egypt, and Jordan increased during the early 1960s, with Palestinian guerrilla groups actively supported by Syria. In May, 1967, President Nasser, his prestige much eroded through his inaction in the face of Israeli raids, requested the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Israel (which had no UN forces stationed on its territory) responded by mobilizing.

The escalation of threats and provocations continued until June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a massive air assault that crippled Arab air capability. With air superiority protecting its ground forces, Israel controlled the Sinai peninsula within three days and then concentrated on the Jordanian frontier, capturing Jerusalem's Old City (subsequently annexed), and on the Syrian border, gaining the strategic Golan Heights. The war, which ended on June 10, is known as the Six-Day War.

The Suez Canal was closed by the war, and Israel declared that it would not give up Jerusalem and that it would hold the other captured territories until significant progress had been made in Arab-Israeli relations.

If the Israelis just went after Syria, that would be understandable - they were the then-equivalent of Afghanistan, aiding and abetting the Palestinians. But Israel started with Egypt, then Jordan, THEN Syria. The nation they had the most visible cause to attack was near the bottom of the target list!

The Israelis withdrew from the Sinai in 1982, and the Golan in 2000, but they still have Jerusalem to this day. If this was a "just war", would they have struck first AND waited just over 30 years to give territory back? And even then, just 2/3 of it?

[Griff]

Originally posted by Chewbaccus
The nation they had the most visible cause to attack was near the bottom of the target list!

*cough* 911 Saudi Arabia *cough*

It's so cute how you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Israel fired the first shots, but they didn't start the war. Egypt illegaly closed the Straits of Tiran by military force - this was recognized internationally to be an act of war. Nasser said "We knew the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba meant war with Israel... the objective will be Israel's destruction." The Egyptian commander of of Sharm al-Shekh, from where Egypt warned they would shoot at any Israeli ship that attempted to pass, acknowledged that "the closing of the straits was a declaration of war." Nasser admitted that the war was not over the straits but over Israel's existance.

Egyptian war plans included the massacre of Tel Aviv's civilian population. Damascus Radio broadcasted the following: "Arab masses, this is your day. Rush to the battlefield... Let them know that we shall hang the last imperialist soldier with the entrails of the last Zionist." Hafiz al-Assad gave orders to "strike the enemy's settlements, turn them into dust, pave the Arab roads with the skulls of Jews. Strike them without mercy." He also called their forthcoming attack "a battle of annihilation." The Egyptian army was equipped with poison gas, long illegal in war time.

Israel would not have survived had it lost. The goal of the Arab armies was the complete decimation of the population of Israel. We're talking war crimes.

Israel attacked Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi airfields on June 5, 1967. Israel did not attack Jordan in hopes that it would stay out of the war. Israel sent messages to King Hussein in which it stressed that they would not attack Jordan unless they were attacked first. They clarified that they had no interest in taking the West Bank or even the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem unless they were attacked first. Jordan ignored the messages and began shelling <b>suburbs</b>. Over six thousand shells were fired into Israeli <b>residential areas</b>, wounding over 1,000 civilians and killing 20.

Despite this, <b>Israel did not yet respond</b>, hoping that Jordan would just fire a few opening salvos and then limit military actions. It was only after Jordan sent its air force to bomb the <b>residential neighborhoods</b> of Netanya, Kfar Sirkin and Kfar Saba that Israeli air forces attacked Jordanian military airfields.

Then - this is great - Israel accepted a UN cease fire - but Jordan kept fighting! So again, Israel responded - <b>only now</b> capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank.

But Israel started with Egypt, then Jordan, THEN Syria.

As I demonstrated above, this is plainly false. Jordan was attacked last, only after it had attacked Israel.

If this was a "just war", would they have struck first AND waited just over 30 years to give territory back?

They struck first because if their air superiority was demolished, so would be their citizens. If a man comes to you and says "I am going to kill you and your family, and I'm going to do it right now", do you wait for him to strike? Or do you eliminate the threat?

I eliminate the threat, as do most people. Israel actually <b>waited</b> until it was beyond a threat. Israel waited until Egypt and Syria started to take action! But of course, it wasn't a just war. You are either amazingly ignorant or anti-Semitic. I leave it to you to admit which.

As far as giving territory back, Israel has never withdrawn from Golan - because Syria has not made peace with Israel, which is the requirement for their withdrawal (as is stated plainly in UN Resolution 242 - why don't you read it some time?). Israel withdrew from the Sinai <b>when Egypt met the conditions set forth for withdrawal in UN Resolution 242</b>. The PLO still has not met the conditions set forth for withdrawal in UN Resolution 242 (Jordan released claim of the West Bank to the PLO a long time ago), so Gaza and the West Bank are still occupied.

Regardless, when has it even been a custom for a country that <b>fought and won a defensive war</b> to give territory back? What does that say? "Oh, you can go ahead and kill us, and you'll suffer no negative consequences! Here, have all this land back! Please attack us again!" Get real. The Arabs are lucky that Israel even accepted 242, because otherwise they are under no obligation to give the land back.

[Chewbaccus]

First of all, Griff, some NyQuil would really help out that nasty little cough you got going on there. Bonus points, before it knocks you out for the next 10 years, you might be healthy enough to explain what the hell you meant by that.

Dave, where'd you get all that? Before I start, I just want to say that there's no sarcasm here in this post, just honest curiosity. I wanted to throw up a reply, but I had to run off to class. I admit I'm not a foremost expert on the Six-Day War, but I wanted to learn. The first thing I thought of was encyclopedia.com, and their entry for the Six-Day War was what I quoted. Where did you get your stuff from?

I mean, you say I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, and with such a diametrically opposed viewpoint to my source, I can see how you can say such a thing. If I'm so clearly missing crucial facts on this, help me rectify that. Please?

Again, NO sarcasm. I honestly want to learn. Thank you.

[Griff]

Originally posted by Chewbaccus
First of all, Griff, some NyQuil would really help out that nasty little cough you got going on there. Bonus points, before it knocks you out for the next 10 years, you might be healthy enough to explain what the hell you meant by that.

Thanks for the heads up Chewey, but I'm feeling better now. I thought it was an interesting comparison. Israel going after Syria late in their conflict and Bush going after S.A. late or never even though the 911 perps were Saudis, apparently taking orders and money from a Saudi. Imperfect comparison but I'm an opportunist.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by dave
Bruce's insinuation is that we'd be speaking German, of course.

Or Japanese, or Spanish or worst of all Rebel.

Lots and lots of places. I don't have them all here now.

What you really need to do, however, is read books from all sides. Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens are good for your completely biased Palestinian side (no, really - read these guys - they are amazing in that they ignore reality - but they will provide a Palestinian view). Noam Chomsky is also unreal in his ability to propagandize.

I actually don't read much Israeli propaganda. I know it exists, and I read a guy the other day, but he was a fucking nutjob and I just sorta closed the browser.

As for everything I quoted above, it's all in the record if you dig deep enough.

The problem is (and I'm being honest here) many sources buy into the anti-Semitic rhetoric of people like Chomsky and Said (I haven't read enough Hitchens; I think he's just strongly misguided). It really is a bigger problem than you might realize. A good eye opener is Dershowitz's <i>The Case for Israel</i>, which is a pretty lucid overview of what's going on. It doesn't claim that Israel is perfect - it just points out the bullshit.

I responded the way I did because it's time to stamp out this bullshit. Israel isn't perfect, but it's far better than many people believe. As Dershowitz says, "It's the Jew among nations."

(By the way, I appreciate your open attitude. I'm used to people who don't have one - like tw or jaguar, for instance - and it perhaps puts a bit of nasty in my posts.)

[elSicomoro]

I started this before Dave posted, so forgive me for any overlapping thought.

There are a wide variety of resources on the net and in books. But watch those sources...lots of slant, and the accounts vary. Based on what I've read, Dave's account is pretty accurate, though "Egypt, Jordan, then Syria" is mentioned by several sources, along with Soviet backing and involvement.

In the end, I would say it was a just war.

Jordan was definitely attacked last.

[Chewbaccus]

Originally posted by dave
(By the way, I appreciate your open attitude. I'm used to people who don't have one - like tw or jaguar, for instance - and it perhaps puts a bit of nasty in my posts.)

Man, you have no idea the level of sympathy I'm generating for you here. With the right conversion methods, I could power Oklahoma with this much sympathy.

When I get some funds (the epitaph of many a college student), I'll check out that Dershowitz and one of those Palestinian books. Maybe just take a day and see both sides at once. Thanks, Dave. 'Preciate it.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by dave
Jordan was definitely attacked last.

Several sources I've read say Egypt was hit first, Jordan shortly thereafter, then Syria (and Iraq) later in the day. I'll see if I can find more info when I go to the library this afternoon.

I don't have anything to add here, really, but I just noticed your user title, and so I must:

"MY NAME IS SUE! HOW DO YOU DO! NOW YOU GONNA DIE!"

[elSicomoro]

Man...the central branch of the Philadelphia Free Library is huge...more on that later.

After reading at the Library and re-reading a lot of internet shit: Egypt getting its ass handed to them first is prevalent in just about everything I've read. As far as Syria, Jordan, and Iraq...it becomes muddled: most of it is either unclear, inferred by the source, or open to interpretation.

"Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue..."