Sycamore's amazing conclusion #1

[Whit]

because unless you accept the truth of some things youre doomed to doubt everything. which may be fine with you, but it doesnt sound like fun to me.

     Well, not everything is in doubt. Some truths are pretty basic, like water's wet and pain sucks for instance. I know that not everyone agrees with that last one, but it's something I don't question. I don't think that's a faith thing though.
     Seriously, the only reason I've ever been given to have faith is that some people who were substance abusers needed faith to get out of that hedonistic lifestyle. I've really been enjoying this conversation, but I'm still waiting on the answer to my question "Why have faith?" I gave the only reason I know of but it doesn't apply to me or a lot of people I know. So how 'bout it?

and in my eyes, the fact that you try to do what's right is whats important, not whether or not you get it right every time. thats good enough to count as faith to me. as a definition, i know it doesnt match up. but as a concept, i think it does.

Okay, this throws me. Maybe it's because I'm working off definition which you admit doesn't match up. It seems to me that you are connecting faith and doing good directly. I've got to say I find that a little insulting. That basically means that I do good because deep down inside I DO have faith. Um, no, I don't. I do good because that's what I value. I choose my actions not from faith but from self-respect. I don't care about opinions of a 'higher being' only my own. You're going to have to back-up tying faith to doing what you think is right. I don't see it.

     Looking forward to your reply.

[juju]

I have faith in porn.


Mmmmm.... porn...

[Whit]

     And just what would "faith in porn" entail? The belief that it's everlasting and that the world is made better by a good cum-shot?

[juju]

Belief?

Weren't you paying attention? Faith just means my own ability to choose right from wrong. So, in effect, by saying "I have faith in porn", I'm just saying that porn is "good".

Originally posted by Whit
The belief that it's everlasting and that the world is made better by a good cum-shot?

Isn't that all true?

[perth]

im not going to respond in any particular order, so bear with me.

whit said: You're going to have to back-up tying faith to doing what you think is right. I don't see it.

i said: and in my eyes, the fact that you try to do whats right is whats important, not whether or not you get it right every time. thats good enough to count as faith to me. as a definition, i know it doesnt match up. but as a concept, i think it does.

i misspoke. i didnt intend to tie faith to doing good. my point was that faith can take many forms, not the least of which is faith in ones ability to choose right from wrong. theres a distinction here. choosing right from wrong does not require faith, but faith in yourself requires that you know right from wrong and work to achieve that. i realise you dont consider that faith, and thats fine. call it what you will, belief, expectation, faith. i see it as faith because i have a broader interpretaion of the word.

whit said: seems to me that you are connecting faith and doing good directly. I've got to say I find that a little insulting. That basically means that I do good because deep down inside I DO have faith. Um, no, I don't. I do good because that's what I value. I choose my actions not from faith but from self-respect. I don't care about opinions of a 'higher being' only my own.

that wasnt intended to insult. neither i nor the dictionary (or you, based on your definition of faith) tie faith to belief in a higher power. i didnt say you do good because you have faith in a higher power, you do good because you have faith (or whatever you want to call it) in yourself to do so. having faith does not necessitate belief in a higher power. so when you ask:

"Why have faith?"

i respond by thinking, "in what? god? yourself? money? faith in what?" because your question is too broad. and even if it was specific, (using faith in god as an example) i couldnt answer that, because i cant even explain why *i* have faith in god. i just do. i made a choice to do so and while that choice is often a struggle for me, ive found that its what works best for me in my life.

~james

[God]

Humanity is flawed. Organised religion is also flawed. This doesnt mean God ( that would be me) doesnt exist.

That also means that Satan exists too though.

[Whit]

     It sounds to me like we are at an impasse due to definitions. Let's try this, I try to do good. I think everyone thinks what they are doing is the right thing, but I could be wrong. Because I've made choices based on my experience, not just pulled out of my ass, most people agree that I tend to do good things. Are you saying it's faith in my self that drives my desire to good, guides my ability to do good, or that it's faith that makes me think it's right?

     I would like to point out that your average sociopath is convinced that they are doing what should be done, therefore the 'right thing.' I don't think that their faith makes their decisions good.

[Whit]

     Um, God? If organized religion is flawed doesn't that mean that you've been misrepresented? If so doesn't it follow that, in fact, the biblical God doesn't exist? Perhaps you're some close proximity to the biblical god or did they get it all wrong?

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by Smoothmoniker
I think a logic argument can be made blah, blah, blah ...

Originally posted by Undertoad
OK, make it.

[EXCUSE]Sorry for the stall. One of my artists just got signed, so I'm in the studio for a while.[/EXCUSE] When I get a chance, I'll start a new thread with what I think is a solid logic argument for the existence of God. Any of you wishing to read ahead may want to look at the Islamic Kal-am cosmological argument, and brush up on your Kant and Barth.

Until then, continue your pagan hedonism ...
-sm

[Whit]

     Kant??? You want me to go back over Kant? Aw, christ, would you like me to follow that up by crushing my nuts with a rolloing pin?
     Oh wait, I mean... no, that pretty much covers what I meant. Does it have to be Kant? Shit...
     Maybe "pagan hedonism" suddenly doesn't sound like such a bad choice...

[Undertoad]

Tell us about the signed artist! (Er, in another thread...)

[elSicomoro]

Wow sm, are you a label owner or a manager? (Like UT said, post in another thread.)

I myself own a label...completely dedicated to my own output. We haven't released much...actually, we haven't released anything. Someday, though.

[perth]

Originally posted by Whit
     It sounds to me like we are at an impasse due to definitions.

probably.

I would like to point out that your average sociopath is convinced that they are doing what should be done, therefore the 'right thing.' I don't think that their faith makes their decisions good.

i agree. i did not say that faith drives their decision-making process (although, it can). faith in god and faith in yourself are 2 different things. your faith in yourself does not drive your decisions, it is a result of your decisions. faith in god, for those that choose to have it, can drive a decision-making process. maybe i should be using different words for these concepts, but i really cant think of anything without arbitrarily choosing as synonym.

i think our problem is that even when we do agree on a definition, our interpretations are still drastically different.

~james

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Tell us about the signed artist! (Er, in another thread...)

cellar>main>home base>music industry junk

-sm