College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[xoxoxoBruce]

Bill Moyers interviewed an economics dude a few weeks ago. Unfortunately I didn't catch the first part and don't know who he was. But what struck me as amazing is him telling how virtually every school has a separate staff and separate buildings (usually at opposite ends of the campus), for economics and business curriculums. The bottom line was, never the tween shall meet, which strikes me as ludicrous.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But what struck me as amazing is him telling how virtually every school has a separate staff and separate buildings (usually at opposite ends of the campus), for economics and business curriculums.

An Economist is the scientist of that discipline. A business school teaches science application. In all disciplines, the two are maintained separate.

Reason for Bell Labs (Murray Hill) success was that the Labs only did fundamental research. Application of the science was always done elsewhere (ie Allentown). Keeping the two sciences separate is essential.

Bell Labs was the source of communication theory (that makes the internet and cell phones possible), the transistor, computer voice and recognition, Unix (later called Linux, Windows, OSx, etc), Telstar (communication satellite), microwave communication, laser, C programming language, origins of the universe (ie big bang theory), and a long list of other inventions now considered standard products. Only possible because in the 1940s through 1990s, research was always kept separate from application.

Then AT&T and Lucent virtually destroyed the Labs by making scientists more productive - to do research that only had a purpose. Important is to keep scientific research separated from engineering applications.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by glatt

This is a topic that is very important to me and I want to be as knowledgeable as possible about it. I need to figure out how much I should try to influence my kids' decisions about what they study and if they go to college.

My two cents would not to try to push your kids into a specific field (to certain extent) but to try to be top tier in whatever field they pick. I can't really back this up besides my limited personal perspective but that seems to be a better indicator of employment than fields of study. I would highly recommend this if your kids go into engineering. "Work hard, play hard" is the cool thing to do by senior year and looking back at my experience, I wish I had that mentality as a freshman.

Also, if your kids are good with their hands, going into the trades may not be a bad idea. Out of all my friends (many of them electrical/biomed/civil engineers), the guy making the most money right now just has a two year degree from a private technical college and fixes machines in the nuclear field. Keep in mind that he graduated 2nd or 3rd in his class and job placement after graduation is near 100% at that school.

[elSicomoro]

I don't regret getting my Bachelors and my Masters, but I'm not sure they were necessary. I dunno...I really got a LOT out of the Masters beyond theory and I took some really cool classes as an undergrad. But I've been looking for a job commensurate to my schooling and experience off and on for 5 years now...and have not been very successful. I love the work I do right now, but I didn't need to really go to college to do it.

I think my son will wind up doing a trade. Granted, he's only 10 right now and a lot can happen between now and then...but he's so bored with regular schoolwork. My brother was the same way.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Then AT&T and Lucent virtually destroyed the Labs by making scientists more productive - to do research that only had a purpose. Important is to keep scientific research separated from engineering applications.

Maybe if the people running the business knew more about economics that wouldn't have happened.
Lucent died of adding umpteen layers of middle management which bled them dry.

[infinite monkey]

This article came through on NASFAA News this morning. It speaks about student loan debt and 'is it really worth it?'

For me, my bachelor's degree got me in the entry-level door in Higher Ed. But now I see, with the Sidler not even having an associate's degree...it doesn't really matter much these days.

I've thought (very briefly) about getting my Master's degree but for what? I have no aspirations to be a 'director' of anything. I can't see anything a Master's would afford me that my bachelor's doesn't...and that ain't much. If this career goes down the toilet, I expect I'll be back in QA/manufacturing or I'll get training in some sort of outdoorsy field.

The times they are a'changin'.

But no one can ever take your education away from you, and I am glad I attended a liberal arts college and was exposed to so much more than just 'you do this to get this job' but I don't know that's a luxury many people have these days.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/33...still-worth-it

In looking at 2010 Labor Department data the Center for College Affordability and Productivity found that the pool of new college graduates (41 million) was greater than the number of jobs which required a college degree (28 million). The likelihood of obtaining a job to meet a new graduate's financial needs to adequately pay off the loan is of concern.

A survey by Rutgers University last year reported that half of new graduates said the jobs they have after college do not require a 4 year degree, and only 20% reported that the jobs they had were in their chosen field. The starting salary for new graduates was about 10% less than five years ago; new graduates find themselves underemployed, taking jobs to pay the bills, or opting to go back to graduate school to boost their credentials, hoping to give them an edge in an increasingly competitive market.

With student load debt surpassing $1 trillion dollars and the market being what it is with job creation at a deep low, the necessity for college for all needs to be examined, as do requirements for jobs in the marketplace. Is it worth going into thousands of dollars in debt to get a bachelors degree ... only to land a job as an administrative assistant? It is not worth furthering that debt to get a graduate degree, yet remain underemployed upon graduation.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

With a four-year degree in Computer Science from a competitive private northeastern college and a third of the coursework towards an MBA, and 25 years experience, I am unemployable in my field unless I move across the country. Well shit happens, and a degree doesn't prepare you for that.

Well. It's true that the cool programming jobs (at least the ones I think are cool) are in NYC, Chicago, and the west coast. But there are lots of corporate, access the database and print a report, jobs out there. According to dice.com, there are 84,116 tech jobs out there. I could be more targeted, but I don't know what your skillset is.

A year and a half ago I was working for a huge corp we'll call HAL and I didn't like it very much. HAL had bought the company I worked for and it was like being absorbed by the borg.

So I evaluated where I was in my career and decided that I needed to move into mobile development. I already had an iPad. I bought a Mac Mini and taught myself iOS programming. After a few months, I put my resume up on dice and the ball started rolling. From first insight to iPad job took just 7 months. That's one of the great things about programming - you need new skills? Go ahead and learn them.

If you've got object-oriented skills, I could put in a good word for you here. Yes it would mean moving. But sometimes you have to move for the right opportunity.

Mrs. Z and I grew up in STL. When I got into PC programming, there wasn't anything there (still isn't by the way). We moved to Seattle, a few other places, and ended up in Chicago. And employment is the reason we still don't live in St. Louis.

[Undertoad]

I haven't coded professionally since 1999 and don't know object-oriented programming at all. I was a system administrator.

[Pete Zicato]

I just checked. There are Android jobs in the greater Philly area. You have an Android phone, no? Why not teach yourself Android programming. Companies are desperate for mobile developers.

You can break out of this UT.

[Undertoad]

I taught myself web design, is what I did... founded a small company to do microsites for small businesses.

Turned out there is not much call for it round here. I know you don't believe me. Ask bluecuracao. And when they hire 'em, they hire fresh-outs, not 49-year-old fat guys. Because they can pay the kids nothing and ride their ass to work a shit ton of overtime.

So I picked the wrong thing to learn. Or maybe I did what I wanted, and the money didn't follow because the economy.

Also I forgot, again, that people do not hire generalists to work in IT. IT is always specialists. I thought, surely I will be invaluable to someone, as a guy who can do a little of everything: web design, web programming, system administration. But IT prefers to hire three different specialists for each of those things.

But I guess I overstated my problem because I don't think of it as a problem. IT managers, around here, routinely suck, and tend to make your life a living hell. The only way I escaped that was to try building my own businesses. I imagine that I will be much happier, at this stage of life, working as a pharmacy assistant or behind the counter at a vet hospital. We will see what happens.

I do know that I was unable to learn anything while working full time, having two hours of commute each day, and J on weekends.

[Undertoad]

Oh yeah and unlike Apple product stuff, true Android development happens in Java. Not really my... cup of tea

[Perry Winkle]

My experience is skewed because I've almost exclusively worked for software development companies.

I get the impression sys-admin jobs are being eaten by developers. DevOps is kind of a hand-wavy term IMHO. But the trend towards developers taking over operational jobs is real, at least in certain situations.

There is a point of scale where the DevOps tools are weak enough that people do bring in dedicate administrative folks, but it's often limited to networking/high-end infrastructure management.

I for one love having a dedicated ops engineer. But they have to be top notch or they are as much hindrance as help. At a previous gig, our ops (2 guys, part time) rocked and could keep up with the pace of development. At my current gig the guy who handles production ops is a clown. His skills are still pre-DevOps and overall he just can't keep up with the pace of change. That said the guy who does our Windows ops (mostly supporting the sales folks) is pretty good.

Most of the non-software shop programmer jobs I see really want an admin and programmer in one. Handle the file shares and desktop support and maintain our applications.

[Pete Zicato]

Now I'm hearing excuses. I'm no genius. If I can do it, you can.

If admin is out. Learn something else.

Get a mac mini and an ipod touch. Total outlay ~$800. Less if you go used. Learn Objective C and iOS.

Learn php or python.

Or move. We have html/css people of all age ranges where I work.

Or don't move, suck it up and don't be picky. There are Android jobs in your area.

Or you can reject all these things and earn less than you are worth.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Oh yeah and unlike Apple product stuff, true Android development happens in Java. Not really my... cup of tea

There is no "true" way to do Android development. There is the way that most books will teach you, using Eclipse and Java. But then there is the "fun" way using whatever JVM language tickles your fancy. Clojure (a LISP), JRuby, Mirah, and dozens of others will get you started. If you run into a performance issue they can be resolved or you can rewrite a portion of the app in Java.

It's all very fluid.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I taught myself web design, is what I did... founded a small company to do microsites for small businesses.

Turned out there is not much call for it round here. I know you don't believe me. Ask bluecuracao. And when they hire 'em, they hire fresh-outs, not 49-year-old fat guys. Because they can pay the kids nothing and ride their ass to work a shit ton of overtime.

So I picked the wrong thing to learn. Or maybe I did what I wanted, and the money didn't follow because the economy.

Also I forgot, again, that people do not hire generalists to work in IT. IT is always specialists. I thought, surely I will be invaluable to someone, as a guy who can do a little of everything: web design, web programming, system administration. But IT prefers to hire three different specialists for each of those things.

But I guess I overstated my problem because I don't think of it as a problem. IT managers, around here, routinely suck, and tend to make your life a living hell. The only way I escaped that was to try building my own businesses. I imagine that I will be much happier, at this stage of life, working as a pharmacy assistant or behind the counter at a vet hospital. We will see what happens.

I do know that I was unable to learn anything while working full time, having two hours of commute each day, and J on weekends.

I've heard that during depressions and recession the two industries that actually increase are Alcohol and entertainment. Apparently people like to forget their troubles. Entertainment is all whack now with the internet, not like in the old days when you could spend all day at the movies. Now you spend all day in front of a computer or TV. But as of yet, there is no beer app.

Hence my current career path.