China conducts first test-flight of stealth plane

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

But it's not a full service carrier, because when it was being built originally for the Soviet Union, the only way it would be allowed to pass through Turkey to the Mediterranean is if it wasn't designated an aircraft carrier. So it has limited functions, which I don't really understand. It looks like a carrier to me.

No catapult, severely limiting the types of aircraft it can handle, ie no serious fighters.

Originally Posted by loTEK911

I don't know what goes into building one, but it's probably economically crippling. Hell, I'm shocked to see the UK only has 2 & Russia only has one.

The UK will retire those two when their new one comes on line. The new one is $5 billion+.

[Undertoad]

I don't know. It seems like a pretty difficult thing to do, but China has a space program.

There's one other thing I've heard about, which is that almost all oil inbound to eastern China goes through the Strait of Malacca, which is a 20 mile space between Singapore and Indonesia. If somebody was angry with China, for, say, invading Taiwan, they could cut off oil pretty easily and face China down with the limited amount of oil China has in reserve. That's where I'd send the carrier first, just to say, hey we might have a say here too.

[glatt]

The wikipedia entry for the Varyag is interesting.

China bought an under construction Soviet aircraft carrier that had been stripped down to its bare hull. They planned to use it as a floating hotel/casino, but that was either a cover all along, or the details broke down, and it never happened. The hull was towed to China, but broke loose from its tow line at one point during a storm off Greece, killing a skeleton crew member. When it finally reached China, at a towing cost of $5 Million, it was abandoned for a while. And it's now being rebuilt by the Chinese navy to use as a carrier. But it's not a full service carrier, because when it was being built originally for the Soviet Union, the only way it would be allowed to pass through Turkey to the Mediterranean is if it wasn't designated an aircraft carrier. So it has limited functions, which I don't really understand. It looks like a carrier to me.

[TheMercenary]

The Economist just did a multipage article about the growth of China and specifically it's military. Until recently the Chinese never really had a cause to project their power beyond their immediate region. They have acquired a few subs from the Russians and are masters are re-engineering much of their military hardware. My guess is they will steal their way into the 21st Century via industrial espionage.

http://www.economist.com/node/179029...ry_id=17902953

http://www.economist.com/node/179086...ry_id=17908622

[loTEK911]

From looking at Undertoads link, Owning an aircraft carrier seems a verry exclusive club. Out of 9 nations only 3 have more then 1. I don't know what goes into building one, but it's probably economically crippling. Hell, I'm shocked to see the UK only has 2 & Russia only has one.

[tw]

Originally Posted by loTEK911

From looking at Undertoads link, Owning an aircraft carrier seems a verry exclusive club. Out of 9 nations only 3 have more then 1.

An aircraft carrier is a massive expense. It has very limited functions. Is mostly about show.

The PLA took a slap in the face when Clinton stopped their aggressive behavior by sailing to carriers through the straits of Formosa. A carrier can slap the face of a nearby land force. And if the Chinese attacked it, well, even the PLA understood a negative political problem that creates.

Therefore the PLA decided it needed to learn technology. That military strength by numbers alone does not make it. Suddenly generals who said so were in power. And so the PLA has been in a 15 year program of becoming a technologically informed power.
China has an aircraft carrier under construction. It may appear in two years. But far more serious is the threat to all carrier fleets. Submarines and naval attack missiles. Missiles such as carried by the Kursk. And Exocet - an oldest technology – are still major threats. Carriers are limited pieces. Were completely useless in Desert Storm. Had almost no useful functions in Mission Accomplished. Mostly due to inferior planes, excessive costs, and a platform that can barely defend it self.

Appreciate what the Palins, Limbaughs, O’Donnels, and Cheneys in China are saying. China has already declared oceans down to Malaysia and out to lower Japanese island as property of China. Everyone here should already know about the Spratly, Parcel, and Senkaku/ Diaoyu islands. If you don’t, you know virtually nothing about China in an international world. These are focal points that define one major power block in China.

Which China is saying what? The Americans were told that China would take care of the Western Pacific. That America can have the eastern Pacific. So Vietnam is setting up to become a naval repair facility for the US Navy. There are consequences when one is more interested in their ego (we must be #1) rather than concentrating on things that make one #1 (we will innovate).

You see these same problems in business. Businesses who must be #1 - screw everyone else (AIG, GM) only did massive harm to themselves and all other Americans. Business that strived to innovate and grow into new markets (HP, Intel, the new attitude in Ford) are what make an economy, people, and the world a productive and peaceful place.

Unfortunately the PLA attitude is about reestablishing a Chinese domination over their rightful empire. Not all of China is saying that. But that is the same attitude that made so many American allies turn less friendly to America in the 2000s.

It certainly did not help when enemies of America in America became extremists. When China tried to buy an oil company - Unocal. Patriotic (educated) Americans knew this deal was proper and necessary. China that is growing needed the company. America who needed the money should have sold IF Americans are into business; not egos. These American extremists were telling China that only first class countries can own oil companies. IOW American extremists only empowered Chinese extremists. That 'not making the sale' disaster created by American howling will have consequences even 20 years later.

Do we decide to empower their extremists? Or empower Chinese who would do business - grow their nation into a member of the world?

[footfootfoot]

*snort*

[Lamplighter]

Not sure this is the best thread, but...


BBC News
28 May 2013

Chinese hackers 'compromise' US weapons systems designs

Chinese hackers have accessed designs for more than
two dozen US weapons systems, a US newspaper has reported.
Designs for combat aircraft, ships and missile defences were among those compromised,
a Pentagon paper found, the Washington Post reported.
<snip>

The compromised US designs include those for advanced Patriot missile systems called PAC-3,
an Army anti-missile system known as Thaad,
and the Navy's Aegis ballistic-missile defence system, according to the Washington Post.

The F/A-18 fighter jet, V-22 Osprey aircraft, Black Hawk helicopter
and the Navy's new Littoral Combat Ship were also compromised.
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the most expensive weapons system ever built, was also cited on the list.

The reports do not describe the extent of the theft, but
correspondents say the hack could give China information that may
be used against the US in the event of a potential future conflict.

[glatt]

future hot conflict.

This breaking into our government files is a cold conflict already.

[Lamplighter]

I posted that because just earlier this morning I was engaged in
a conversation about off-shore manufacturing and how quickly
some identical/similar things appear as new products from other
manufacturers or in other countries.

My argument was along the lines that if a US company elects
to have a foreign manufacturer make it's product, it seems almost
impossible to keep the design/proprietary aspects of it secret.
And despite contractual agreements, $ has a way to copy.

The military says it keeps control over manufacturing... maybe so
But hacking is not mecessarily limited to CIA operations.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Boeing has been outsourcing parts of their commercial jets for years. It was part of selling overseas, often to state owned airlines. But they have always controlled the design/building of the wings... until the new 787. The Japs designed and are building the wings, so tell me why they need Boeing?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by loTEK911

If the US, who has the largest defense budget in the world by far, is trying to down grade thier (our) military & focus on rapid mobilization & anti insurgent tactics, (rightly so) why is China dumping mass $$ into a stealth fighter that is predominately effective only in a mass modern war. A concept that most experts view as a thing of the past.

We are not downgrading, we're rearranging response priorities. Making the left jab more effective doesn't negate the haymaker right, it enhances it. China is seeking what we've already got.

Originally Posted by loTEK911

Our allies haven't exactly proven themselves on the up & up with us.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-t...g_us_musl.html
But you have to ask about motivation. I can see maybe Israel, hypothetically, getting their hands on complete tech info for the F-22 and, not having a need to build a stealth fighter themselves, might sell it. But with the vast amounts of cash nations throw at each other, the price tag doesn't seem worth risking the loss of the US as an ally. It's one thing to steal plans for spy cameras & drones to use themselves. It's another to jeopardize US air supremacy by selling stealth tech to a rival super power.

For Israel, it started with the Rosenburgs, and has continued unabated.
We have so many immigrants, many still foreign nationals, working in high tech industries that do research/development/manufacturing for the defense department, the secrets are often out of the country before the military ever gets them. They just prosecuted an Engineer at Boeing, who had been selling tech data to China for a decade. He said although he was paid for it, his primary motivation was his Chinese heritage.
We also have a tremendous number of foreign students rotating though our higher educational system. They return home with a long list of frat-brothers/classmates, who can be probed later for possible deals without raising suspicion.
Even in a tightly controlled totalitarian society, there is only so much that can be done to prevent data theft. The best prevention is national loyalty, and that's problematic in our "embracing diversity" culture.

[Lamplighter]

"If we could just get rid of all the damn furriners"
So said Chief Rain In the Face when he stumbled over Plymouth Rock

It seems implausible to me that an entire stealth fighter could be reproduced
by one or even thousands of individual employees,
regardless of their nationality or heritage.

I would look to purposeful governmental or corporate maneuverings

[xoxoxoBruce]

Chief Rain in the Face knew their loyalty was not here, and their loyalty, above all else, would govern their actions.

They don't need the entire plane, only key secret technologies, the rest of the shit they can get online. I've seen a complete breakdown of who's making what, and how the assembly goes together. The only thing missing was the technology for how the components operated, and only a small part of that is new.