Who leads the Tea Party? - Page 2

Undertoad · 10-29-2010, 02:54 PM

I used to but now I'm sort of in the muddle. I'm a member of the Confusion Party. We have no principles and we are certain we don't know what the best approach is.

skysidhe · 10-29-2010, 03:06 PM

funny UT !

Pico and ME · 10-29-2010, 03:09 PM

Well then since you have the background, what do you think of the 'libertarian' Koch's backing of the Tea Party Movement? Is it truly based on libertarian principles?

spudcon · 10-29-2010, 03:33 PM

Shouldn't this entire thread be under the "Humor" thread?

Undertoad · 10-29-2010, 05:37 PM

It is normal. All ideological movements have backers.

Lamplighter · 10-29-2010, 05:59 PM

No UT, it's genetic for liberals... they just can't hep it.

Griff · 10-29-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I used to but now I'm sort of in the muddle. I'm a member of the Confusion Party. We have no principles and we are certain we don't know what the best approach is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skysidhe

funny UT !

Funny but very true. I consider myself a moderate partisan as well. I'd like to see America get her mojo back but can't figure out how to elect middle of the road compromisers to actually address our national ~~lassitude ennui~~ shititude. The passionate people in both parties lock out reasonableness, so we tic toc to the extremes subverting any chance to build for the future... not that I know what to do about it outside of trying to determine the least extreme candidates on my ballot.

Pico and ME · 10-29-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It is normal. All ideological movements have backers.

Sorry, Im having trouble expressing my meaning. As a former libertarian, do you see the tea party as libertarian in their principles? The reason I wonder is because 1) the Kochs are backing them and 2) a few of their candidates, Rand Paul, for example, are (or at least were) libertarian. But actually, I'm also wondering, are the Kochs even true libertarians?

Undertoad · 10-29-2010, 08:23 PM

Thanks Pic for the clarification, and for the opportunity for me to enjoy the sound of myself typing a lot of words.

I think it's formless enough to create a coalition. I think the people who were first-in did not define it very strongly, so like Obama's formless "change", one could define it however one liked and then proudly claim to be a part of the movement.

But I could be wrong. My libertarian friend, still a true believer, feels like these are the Ron Paul Revolution leftovers. I don't think there are enough of them, and certainly those folks are not Palinites, but perhaps he sees some of his fellow tru-believers at the meetings.

There are roughly two wings of libertarianism. One seeks a philosophically pure utopian ideology. I consider these the "true libertarians", and now they seem similar to me as "true marxists": you have done some interesting work, and it is nice of you to be so optimistic about the human spirit, and it would be nice if humanity worked that way, but apparently it doesn't. Oh and sorry your general school of thought has been taken over by those assholes over there, who are sort of misrepresenting it. Shit happens.

The other wing of libertaria is more utilitarian. It simply notices that markets often create great productivity, we might as well get rid of all drug laws, and light rail is usually a glorious moneyhole fuckup. And certainly, along with many less sensible notions that get floated...

The Kochs seem to be of the latter variety. They gave up on the official Libertarian Party early, which is good because it has long been a remarkably ineffective crew, broadly infested with the utopianites. The Kochs concentrated on the Cato think tank and stuff like that.

Well, good on them. Like Soros and many other wealthy folks, they are welcome to contribute to the well of ideas. Let them say what they think, and let us examine it. Less of their money has gone to promoting ideas than all the money spent on promoting Palmolive... and I don't use Palmolive. In the long run, as an optimist, I think we will find truth and get along with or without their help.

Pico and ME · 10-29-2010, 09:57 PM

You're welcome UT. I really enjoyed reading your explanation and I appreciate the time you took expressing your viewpoint. I'm an optimist too. I keep hoping that one of these days, the best of all these ideologies will finally work together.

I am not acquainted with many libertarians. One I knew on another forum was still basically a kid (just out of college) and he was rough. He had a really nasty cold-hearted side to him, but because he was siding with the dems in trying to get Bush out of office, we tolerated him. But he didn't really sell me on libertarianism. He seemed naively attracted to it its simple message of self and liberty.

What worries me about Koch's involvement with the tea partiers, is he is using their disenchantment due to the bad economy and no jobs to get them on board with many of the libertarian principle he endorses. Which happen to be really good for his company and other really really rich companies, but may not not be good for the the working class that is actually making up the tea partiers. Most of these people say they want to shrink government, but they dont - they don't really want to give up their medicare, their minimum wage guarantee, their clean drinking water, clean air, etc. Koch wants no corporate taxes and no government regulation (Koch industries has put out a lot of money in the past due to regulation infractions). It feels like they are in bed with the lions.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-30-2010, 02:00 AM

Quote:

It feels like they are in bed with the lions.

They are. If the corner butcher poisons you, you can put him out of business, maybe put him in jail, certaunly kick his ass. If a Corporation poisons you, forget it. To walmart or Monsanto you're a pest to be squashed. The only way we can protect ourselves from these giants, is to band together. That's called government, law, and enforcement, and it costs money.

Mr Macho Headstomper thinks he can take care of himself, but he's a fool. When walmart kills or cripples his children, what's he going to do about it, sue them, burn down the store, bitch on the internet? That's not going to help the kid, and he'll be squashed like a grape.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-02-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Well then since you have the background, what do you think of the 'libertarian' Koch's backing of the Tea Party Movement? Is it truly based on libertarian principles?

LP's ideas of what a government should spend tax dollars on and the TP's ideas about it do fairishly coincide.

The Libertarians are a party (for a given value of party) while the Tea Party is more of a mindset.

TheMercenary · 11-02-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You might have heard the term 'tea party', some where along the way, and realized they weren't talking about Boston, or Wonderland.
Slate has listed the tea party's movers & shakers, with a brief summary of what each organization has attempted and accomplished.

You should have titled it as a list of people who have attempted to co-opt the Tea Party message.... and have tried to align themselves with what has been an otherwise grass roots organization with a naturally popular base. Palin was the first big name to try to claim it as her own. Then you throw in the people that the Dems tried to put up as Tea Party members, who were actually plants, in elections, throwing eggs, carrying signs, and the water has become quite muddy.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-02-2010, 03:00 PM

Breadfruit. Those were plants. They ended up getting thrown off the HMS Bounty.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-09-2010, 12:12 PM

Bernardine Dohrn gets the vapors.

10-29-2010, 03:33 PM	#19
spudcon Beware of potatoes Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY, USA Posts: 2,078	Shouldn't this entire thread be under the "Humor" thread? __________________ "I believe that being despised by the despicable is as good as being admired by the admirable."

10-29-2010, 09:57 PM	#25
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	You're welcome UT. I really enjoyed reading your explanation and I appreciate the time you took expressing your viewpoint. I'm an optimist too. I keep hoping that one of these days, the best of all these ideologies will finally work together. I am not acquainted with many libertarians. One I knew on another forum was still basically a kid (just out of college) and he was rough. He had a really nasty cold-hearted side to him, but because he was siding with the dems in trying to get Bush out of office, we tolerated him. But he didn't really sell me on libertarianism. He seemed naively attracted to it its simple message of self and liberty. What worries me about Koch's involvement with the tea partiers, is he is using their disenchantment due to the bad economy and no jobs to get them on board with many of the libertarian principle he endorses. Which happen to be really good for his company and other really really rich companies, but may not not be good for the the working class that is actually making up the tea partiers. Most of these people say they want to shrink government, but they dont - they don't really want to give up their medicare, their minimum wage guarantee, their clean drinking water, clean air, etc. Koch wants no corporate taxes and no government regulation (Koch industries has put out a lot of money in the past due to regulation infractions). It feels like they are in bed with the lions. Last edited by Pico and ME; 10-29-2010 at 10:56 PM.

11-02-2010, 03:00 PM	#29
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Breadfruit. Those were plants. They ended up getting thrown off the HMS Bounty. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-09-2010, 12:12 PM	#30
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Bernardine Dohrn gets the vapors. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-29-2010, 02:54 PM	#16
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I used to but now I'm sort of in the muddle. I'm a member of the Confusion Party. We have no principles and we are certain we don't know what the best approach is.

10-29-2010, 03:06 PM	#17
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	funny UT !

10-29-2010, 03:09 PM	#18
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	Well then since you have the background, what do you think of the 'libertarian' Koch's backing of the Tea Party Movement? Is it truly based on libertarian principles?

10-29-2010, 05:37 PM	#20
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It is normal. All ideological movements have backers.

10-29-2010, 05:59 PM	#21
Lamplighter Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods Posts: 6,402	No UT, it's genetic for liberals... they just can't hep it.

10-29-2010, 08:23 PM	#24
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Thanks Pic for the clarification, and for the opportunity for me to enjoy the sound of myself typing a lot of words. I think it's formless enough to create a coalition. I think the people who were first-in did not define it very strongly, so like Obama's formless "change", one could define it however one liked and then proudly claim to be a part of the movement. But I could be wrong. My libertarian friend, still a true believer, feels like these are the Ron Paul Revolution leftovers. I don't think there are enough of them, and certainly those folks are not Palinites, but perhaps he sees some of his fellow tru-believers at the meetings. There are roughly two wings of libertarianism. One seeks a philosophically pure utopian ideology. I consider these the "true libertarians", and now they seem similar to me as "true marxists": you have done some interesting work, and it is nice of you to be so optimistic about the human spirit, and it would be nice if humanity worked that way, but apparently it doesn't. Oh and sorry your general school of thought has been taken over by those assholes over there, who are sort of misrepresenting it. Shit happens. The other wing of libertaria is more utilitarian. It simply notices that markets often create great productivity, we might as well get rid of all drug laws, and light rail is usually a glorious moneyhole fuckup. And certainly, along with many less sensible notions that get floated... The Kochs seem to be of the latter variety. They gave up on the official Libertarian Party early, which is good because it has long been a remarkably ineffective crew, broadly infested with the utopianites. The Kochs concentrated on the Cato think tank and stuff like that. Well, good on them. Like Soros and many other wealthy folks, they are welcome to contribute to the well of ideas. Let them say what they think, and let us examine it. Less of their money has gone to promoting ideas than all the money spent on promoting Palmolive... and I don't use Palmolive. In the long run, as an optimist, I think we will find truth and get along with or without their help.

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