Man's Inhumanity to Man (and Woman)

[ZenGum]

I want to know what Bruce is going to be when he grows up.

The news can be very upsetting, and in repeated doses, depressing. Most of the things I would say have been said already: these things are probably rarer now than in the past, just more effectively reported; the fact that these things are even being reported means we are on the journey to reducing this kind of thing; each person must find their balance between shielding themselves by not looking, and being aware and outraged so they can be part of the solution. Sometimes you get overwhelmed, so take a few weeks off the news. The cellar will alert you to anything really important.

Happy Birthday.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Cloud

because it's so bad now. if what is happening now is less, how much more did our ancestors suffer this inhuman brutality for millenia. because it means that such things are a normal state of being for homo sapiens.

No! It is the most optimistic result ever. It means we have shown that progress can draw us out of brutality, that humanity can build upon the results of past scholars and develop greater intelligence, and that we can build a better life for all. Just having the intelligence to find and report on these stories is an amazing leap forward. The world is transforming into a better place.

If it helps, there were far fewer of our ancestors. World population has doubled twice since 1880 or so (and the growth of it is slowing).

[DanaC]

The world is, and has always been, full of acts of cruelty and acts of kindness. On the whole, acts of cruelty are more likely to make it into the news than a acts of kindness. Both exist.

You point out that so much of that cruelty is seemingly directed at women. Again, this has always been so. People suffer. We're good at surviving mental, emotional and physical distress. Within that framework, women and children are most at risk of such suffering, either through physical, or through economic and cultural 'weakness'. We are animals. What lifts us above the rest of the mammals is that we see such cruelty as a problem at all.

I have had to work very hard at not being angry, all the fucking time, about this stuff. Studying gender identities and the historical roots of their formation within my own culture has helped me in this. From time to time though, that anger boils up.

These things are not soluble in the short term; but there is power in social movements. The waves of change. Trust to the future to find better answers. Deal with the present as best you can. Accept the past for what it was and understand that for some cultures there is great corrolation between their present and your past and vice versa. But most of all, live with the reality that we are animals and sometimes animals act in inhumane ways.

And then...

Recall that some of these two legged animals do marvellous things. Risk life and limb, study long and hard, sacrifice much to help others. Know that there are random acts of kindness to set against the cruelties of the world. And that daughters may forge paths mothers never dreamed of and brothers and sons may help them pave the way. The world spins. People live and die and that is all there is.

Happy Birthday

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

each person must find their balance between shielding themselves by not looking, and being aware and outraged so they can be part of the solution.

nice

[piercehawkeye45]

Today I was at a party and a certain person, who has not gotten a girl in a long time, was really drunk at this party. He was getting more and more depressed as the night went on as he saw attractive women pay no attention to him. This person then would blatantly stare at a group of girls for a minute then move in to try to hit on them. After getting quickly denied, he would yell "fuck you bitch" and move on to the next unfortunate group of girls.

Another guy, would was in the same situation a year, long decided that he should improve himself and put all the blame on himself. This year, with the help of his self improvement,allowed him be the life of the party with multiple girls at his feet.

The point of this is that people react to hardships differently, some in positive ways, and others in very hurtful and self-destructive ways. Some people react to the hard times in life coldly and decide to take their frustrations out on other people, justifying their selves from their own hardships. Others will perform these actions solely from a false sense a self-entitlement. Usually, a combination of the two.

How our world is today from past times can be argued from many different perspectives and even greater number of conclusions. I think violence is the single most efficient way for our species to gain and control power and it will be used, directly or indirectly, for as long as our species is alive.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Today I was at a party and a certain person, who has not gotten a girl in a long time,

Has not gotten a girl in a long time????

Is that like winning the lottery? Or finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Or catching a butterfly? Or having an angel fly down from heaven and impart some gift to mortal man?

No wonder the guy is miserable.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Is that like winning the lottery? Or finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Or catching a butterfly? Or having an angel fly down from heaven and impart some gift to mortal man?

Yes. Two basic instincts, survival and procreation.
Since rape became, fortunately, unacceptable in most of the world, procreation is infinitely more complicated. Not that all social interaction leads to procreation, but there is none without it. So for the majority of us socially inept males, it's a gift for the other party to make the first move.

[skysidhe]

Although I do agree with your three statements. Instinct alone does not suffice to explain the methodology of this person. I was thinking about the futility of that kind of mind frame. 'TO GET A GIRL' vs to meet people some of which might be girls, gives off a better vibe, than a mere conquest for a particular part of the anatomy.


I refer to hawk's second example.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Although I do agree with your three statements. I was thinking about the futility of that kind of mind frame. 'TO GET A GIRL' vs to meet people some of which might be girls, gives off a better vibe, than a mere conquest for a particular part of the anatomy.

Yep. The first guy has a very sexist mindset where he sees women as nothing but sex objects and he even stupidly treats them that way too. Then he is surprised when girls don't respond to him!

For most people, if you go to a party and your main goal is to pick up girls, you are setting yourself up to fail. If you go there to have a good time, meet and friend a lot of people, you are much more likely to bring someone home with you. And if you don't, you at least had a fun night. Of course there are exceptions for guys that have a natural talent for getting girls if its looks, confidence, sweet talking etc, but that is not the norm so I won't put it in my generalization.

[Cloud]

remember the guy who shot up a gym recently, targeting and killing women, in a rage, because he couldn't get laid? why do so many men have such a sense of entitlement?

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Cloud

why do so many men have such a sense of entitlement?

Testosterone and Soccer Moms?*

*as in 'being brought up by a ----' I have found the children of soccer moms to be above-average when it comes to feelings of entitlement.

[Cloud]

I want to thank everyone for their support, here. I don't know why I woke up on my birthday so depressed. It may be hormones (as detailed elsewhere!), or may be an overload of news stories, but I wanted to make some further remarks. (Now that I'm on my desktop--hate typing on my laptop!).

I talked this over with my wise, level-headed BD#1. Her first comment was, "you can't do anything about it so don't worry about it." This has merit, but I objected, because--isn't it our duty to make positive changes in our world? (i.e., all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Do not allow evil to triumph. Do not do sit by and do nothing). She said, I am doing something. I'm concentrating on my own family, and making sure that I teach my kids right from wrong and give them the tools to make good decisions.

How's that for leaving a positive legacy?

As to the question of whether it's been worse in the past, or better or worse now--ultimately it doesn't matter much. If we can learn from our past mistakes (as human beings), that's great, but I think such change takes a long, long time. Certainly more than the lifetime of one person, and most likely generations. (Here's where "teach my kids right from wrong").

I find Dana's comments relevant and helpful, on the whole, buy I find it interesting that where she is angry, I am depressed. This is a pattern in my life.

People are brutal, mean, and despicable, and as I grow older, I find myself wishing I can unlearn things. I do realize, however, that people can be kind, selfless, and wonderful, too. I've decided to go on a news fast. But I am also looking for ways to contribute to the causes I feel strongly about, such as violence against women. Not there yet, but I am looking for options.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Cloud

remember the guy who shot up a gym recently, targeting and killing women, in a rage, because he couldn't get laid? why do so many men have such a sense of entitlement?

Same reason why whites thought they had the right to hang blacks that did not follow their racist social codes. Power. Power is one of the, if not the most, desired feeling in our species and social groups will brutally oppress others for that feeling of entitlement. It has happened many times throughout our history as a species.

For this specific example, he was raised in a sexist environment where he believe women were nothing more then sex objects and when he could not get women in a sexual way (probably the only way he knew), I assume he felt he needed to show his entitlement in a very destructive way.

[Shawnee123]

"Get" women. "Girls at his feet."

If the first friend in your example hasn't yet committed date rape, he probably will...or worse.

You're young, but I still read into your posts, and there have been posts before, the idea of women as objects. I don't think you think that, rather, I think it's the very subtle ways of speech that point toward the lingering belief that women are to be somehow fooled into giving you some.

Women as equals (no, not the 'same' but equal. as humans). Ahhhh, now there's a lovely idea.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

You're young, but I still read into your posts, and there have been posts before, the idea of women as objects. I don't think you think that, rather, I think it's the very subtle ways of speech that point toward the lingering belief that women are to be somehow fooled into giving you some.

My generation is extremely sexist and I will admit that even though I try, I can not get rid of all sexist tendencies, especially the subtle ones that I will not usually pick up on.

But for the wording, it was suppose to contrast the first person to make a point. Even though I now see how it came off like that, my intention was not to subtly say that an intelligent male can trick women into likely them but that learning from your mistakes will bring you success in the future and blaming others (when it is your fault) will usually only lead to hurtful behavior.

As for my personal views, I will admit that I do see some women purely in a sexual form but I do not see all women in that way. I think it is almost impossible for us to not look at some people in purely a sexual fashion but the line is drawn is when you start generalizing women as sex objects.

Hooking up is a large part of today's youth culture and when talking about that specifically, it is extremely difficult to not come off as sexist because you are treating everyone as sex objects. I have no problem with the "hook up mindset" as long as it is done in a consensual and equal way and that it is only temporary and does not overtake your entire views towards women.

If the first friend in your example hasn't yet committed date rape, he probably will...or worse.

As far as I know, he has never forced sexual contact on a woman but he does blame women for not giving him sexual attention. But yes, that entitled mindset can lead to very hurtful actions. I have brought it up with him before and I will very soon again and I honestly don't think I can affiliate with him anymore.

For example I've heard him complain about how he only got a kiss from a girl he went on a date with even though he drove 20 minutes to pick her and her friends up, had to wait two hours for them to eat, then drive her 20 minutes back to his place, sit around for an hour or so, and then drive her 20 minutes back home. His mindset is that he should get rewarded for his efforts, not that she should do what she wants to do. This is an obvious example of a entitled mindset and bringing us back to the original point of the thread, can lead to really hurtful and condescending actions.