The Job Hunting Trenches

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by sycamore

I turned it down though...I couldn't justify driving or taking the hi-speedline to Norristown every morning for the salary. Montgomery County has to be one of the richest counties, if not the richest, in the Commonwealth. $26,700? Bullshit.

Well, one reason Mongomery County is so "rich" as it has is that it isn't paying enough for such jobs that you would consider commuting from Northeast Philly.

Of course, you could always live somewhere *in* Montgomery County, and spend that money here. In which case you'd get a piece of it back in the form of Philadelphia city wage taxes you wouldn't have to pay anymore. Maybe part of that tax is going to pay the social workers in Philly more money than they would get out here...but somehow I doubt it.

There's evidently enough supply of people qualified for social work up here that they don't need to pay more than $27,000 to get them. County jobs aren't a social program per se (in the sense that *providing* social workers is), and don't exist to "share the wealth", they're driven by supply and demand, just like other labor markets, including the ones you and I work in.

If the market says the job is worth $27k, and the county decided to pay more than that out of tax revenues because "it's a rich county and they can afford it", I think those of us who do live here and do pay those taxes would be highly displeased. I know I would.

[Undertoad]

Plus, as an upper-middle-class county, we deal with our social problems differently. We don't call for government assistance; we shut the doors and windows and drink ourselves to death, or we go to the doctor and get expensive medications.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Plus, as an upper-middle-class county, we deal with our social problems differently...

Say Tony, you better head on down into Norristown and tell 'em this is an upper-midddle class county and they're doing it wrong. I'll be right behind you. Really. :-)

Although I guess crack might count as "expensive medications".

[Undertoad]

Shall I take upper-crusty Blue Bell along to help convince them?

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Shall I take upper-crusty Blue Bell along to help convince them?

I think they're out of town for the summer. :-)

Reading the Times Herald and Pottstown Mercury, there seems to be no shortage of demand for social workers in Mongomery County. There just happens to be plenty of supply, too.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by MaggieL
Well, one reason Mongomery County is so "rich" as it has is that it isn't paying enough for such jobs that you would consider commuting from Northeast Philly.

Past experience tells me that more affluent areas tend to pay better in the social services field (and I'm going to include teachers in this field as well). Philadelphia starts SW trainees out at $27,036 (up about a K from last year)...and I would think Bucks and Montco would start at $29K easily. I don't know how the staffing situation is in Bucks or Montco, but nationally there is a shortage of SW's. My understanding of the state and city situation is that it is the same. It's a thankless job...you do it mainly for the love of the job. But if there really is a shortage out there, agencies (both private and governmental) are gonna have to put out a few more bucks. Love doesn't pay the rent...there has to be some type of financial incentive as well, IMO.

Of course, you could always live somewhere *in* Montgomery County, and spend that money here. In which case you'd get a piece of it back in the form of Philadelphia city wage taxes you wouldn't have to pay anymore. Maybe part of that tax is going to pay the social workers in Philly more money than they would get out here...but somehow I doubt it.

Of course, I might be able to only live in Norristown on $27K a year. Nah...we could at least afford Cheltenham or Abington. But any extra money I would have by living outside the city would probably be offset up by higher rent and transportation expenses.

If the market says the job is worth $27k, and the county decided to pay more than that out of tax revenues because "it's a rich county and they can afford it", I think those of us who do live here and do pay those taxes would be highly displeased. I know I would.

The $27K mark seems to be average in the area. Now, let's say that the city decided to bring in sw's and pay them $30K...b/c in Sycamore's Utopian Scenario, Philadelphia has lots of extra money. Would I be for it? Absolutely. Why? Because I believe that folks like teachers and social workers are grossly underpaid for the work they do. Let's offer a little incentive here, and tie it to some objective points of accountability.

Having said this, money is only the first step. If you're not changing the other aspects, then the money means nothing in the end. But it's a starting point.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by sycamore

Past experience tells me that more affluent areas tend to pay better in the social services field...

"More affluent areas" have higher costs-of-living, so they must pay more for the same work. If you decided to locate in some parts of Mongomerty County you'd have totally nasty COL....and that's one reason I'm no longer in King of Prussia, for example....Jeffersonville is somewhat nearer high-crime (Norristown) and doesn'thave as nice a school district; UMASD is world-class. But since the kids (the remaining kid still in school, actually) legal residence is still in UM that doesn't matter, so I'm here on the other side of the river, because I could afford a house here.

Other parts are very reasonable, and I would expect cheaper than many places inside the city. Of course, many of those parts may not be *near* anything in particular; much of this county is still semirural, (but watch this space).

But if the shortage you say is there is really there, why hasn't it driven up the salaries? Maybe the demand is somewhat elastic; the *quality* of social services is probably not closely monitored by the taxpayers.

Nah...we could at least afford Cheltenham or Abington. But any extra money I would have by living outside the city would probably be offset up by higher rent and transportation expenses.

Where did the county want you to work? Cheltenham and Abington are in fact in Montgomery County, but not by much; they're almost inside the city. Living in Abington and working at the county Intermediate Unit here in West Norriton would not make sense, for example. Some commutes totally outside the city are cheaper and faster than many commutes totally inside the city.

Others are nearly impossiible.

I believe that folks like teachers and social workers are grossly underpaid for the work they do. Let's offer a little incentive here, and tie it to some objective points of accountability.

I beleive that's very true too. I haven't detected much enthusiasm for accountability measures for teachers in the city. UMASD is world-class probably because it pays somewhat better, they spend more on the kids in other ways, and the working conditions are *vastly* better than a city school. I don't know what objective points of accountability they may need to meet, but I do know my kids grew up well-educated there.

I kinda doubt that could be translated to the city just by more salary money and objective standards, though. When somebody at UMASD is a bad teacher, the whole town knows about it in fairly short order; they don't last.

[russotto]

Originally posted by MaggieL
Where did the county want you to work? Cheltenham and Abington are in fact in Montgomery County, but not by much; they're almost inside the city. Living in Abington and working at the county Intermediate Unit here in West Norriton would not make sense, for example. Some commutes totally outside the city are cheaper and faster than many commutes totally inside the city.

Right; Philadelphia pretty much forms a Y, and Cheltenham is right in the crotch of that Y. And there aren't any high speed roads across it, either.

(though while Cheltenham is 'almost inside the city' by location, you can definitely tell when you drive across the city line on 611!)

If you want to work in West Norriton and live cheap in Monkey County, there's always Norristown borough. I'd happily recommend that to my worst enemy.

[Undertoad]

There's Conshohocken too... same kinda deal I'd think, but it would be convenient both to the city and the suburbian living.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by russotto

If you want to work in West Norriton and live cheap in Monkey County, there's always Norristown borough. I'd happily recommend that to my worst enemy.

Originally posted by Undertoad
There's Conshohocken too... same kinda deal I'd think, but it would be convenient both to the city and the suburbian living.

There are some nice places that are actually inside Norrisitown borough that have escaped slumification. East Norriton gives NE Philly a run for its money with a fairly similar cultural base, from what I'm able to see.

And Tony's right: Conshy is viable too, and a far cry from the ex-factory town dump that it used to be...an impressive urban rennaisance and very well-served by SEPTA, too.

[russotto]

Originally posted by MaggieL

And Tony's right: Conshy is viable too, and a far cry from the ex-factory town dump that it used to be...an impressive urban rennaisance and very well-served by SEPTA, too.

Hey, there's a nice duplex a bit outside the borough on Elm that's probably not too expensive.

Disadvantage: it's a teardown

Advantage: While you're working on it, you can get lunch at Pete's, which is a fine deli which I miss a lot since changing jobs.

Possible advantage: Very convenient to Seventh Heaven :-) :-) :-)

Actually, yeah, there's not too much wrong with Conshy (that particular house is an abberation, apparently some sort of pissing contest between the township and the owner over zoning). But I wonder what the dot-com bust did for the revitalization efforts.

Disclaimer: Haven't been there, except on the Betzwood trail, since I left the job there. So the teardown might not be for sale any more, and Pete's and Seventh Heaven might not be there either. Smart money says they're all there, though.

[elSicomoro]

The company for whom I work is apparently moving to Conshohocken next year. Let 'em move. I'm going to estimate that they'll lose 25% of their work force within a year.

Originally posted by MaggieL
But if the shortage you say is there is really there, why hasn't it driven up the salaries? Maybe the demand is somewhat elastic; the *quality* of social services is probably not closely monitored by the taxpayers.

I suspect that many Philadelphians don't even know what a social worker does, other than portrayals of them on television. That's not a slag on Philadelphians...you really only hear about sw's when something bad happens involving one (like the missing girl in Florida). The work they do is not really seen "in action." If your streets are clean and in good condition, you know the streets department is doing their job. If you don't hear about criminals escaping from the city jail, you know the sheriffs department is doing their job.

I think a lot of social work graduates (like teachers) fully realize that the pay isn't going to be great when they get out, and the governments realize that they can "get away" with paying what they do. Of course, many sw's are unionized (I know the City's sw's are), and the benefits are good, which may be a fair trade-off to many.

Where did the county want you to work? Cheltenham and Abington are in fact in Montgomery County, but not by much; they're almost inside the city. Living in Abington and working at the county Intermediate Unit here in West Norriton would not make sense, for example. Some commutes totally outside the city are cheaper and faster than many commutes totally inside the city.

No specific location was given. The letter they sent with the interview notice stated that all open positions were in Norristown. I'm assuming it would have been through HHS, which is on DeKalb Street. It would have been cool if it were through their offices on York Road in Willow Grove.

Of course, there are 80 kabillion factors in making a move somewhere, even locally.

Compared to a place like Upper Merion, I would say Philadelphia is held back by a lower and shrinking tax base, political bickering (including the school board), the teachers union, and parents who simply don't realize the seriousness of what is happening or refuse to accept it. As I see it, what is being done with the school system now can be no worse than what they had. The new CEO seems to be a sharp guy, and from what I've read and understand, Chicago schools improved considerably during his reign there.

A few months ago, there was a big stink about the head of the city's social services going to Puerto Rico to recruit bilingual SW's. Apparently, she made peace by paying her own way there. Give me a solid refresher program in Spanish, which would probably be cheaper than flying to PR and trying to recruit there. I could do it. Not to mention, could you honestly not find any bilingual SW's on the mainland? ESPECIALLY Puerto Ricans in Chicago or NYC? Damn.

[Nic Name]

Opportunities abound for lurkers especially those who fit the profile.

[elSicomoro]

As I was perusing the Northeast Times today...

COLLECTOR - Drug/Alcohol Testing. Successful drug testing program mgmt co. seeks a P/T urine/drug collector/ breath alcohol tech. Position involves travel to various metro Phila. sites to conduct collections.

"So, what do you do?"

"I am a urine collector."

For some reason, I find that incredibly funny.

[elSicomoro]

What the hell kind of job title is this?

CASE MANAGER/COUNSELOR JOB DEVELOPER/RESIDENT SUPERVISOR

It turns out that there are 2 different jobs, just listed in the same ad. Now I'm suspicious of applying to the job...