There they go again.

[xoxoxoBruce]

It's the middle-east version of little brother badgering big brother in the back seat, hoping big brother will retaliate and Dad will stop the car.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

In order for one group to hate another, nationalism needs to be present.

The crusades weren't about nationalism. And Rome's expansion into the middle east wasn't about hatred any more than Hitler's attempted expansion into Russia.

The hatred between the peoples of the Middle East is ancient and visceral - two words understood by Westerners on a mostly intellectual level. To compare their relationship to racism is almost comical.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Beestie

The crusades weren't about nationalism. And Rome's expansion into the middle east wasn't about hatred any more than Hitler's attempted expansion into Russia.

The hatred between the peoples of the Middle East is ancient and visceral - two words understood by Westerners on a mostly intellectual level. To compare their relationship to racism is almost comical.

Deus vult! Deus vult!

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Beestie

The crusades weren't about nationalism.

How were the crusades not about nationalism? Actually provide an argument that supports your statement.

The early people of Islam, people who identified being Muslims, believed that their religion was superior to others and should be spread throughout the region. Nationalism is when a group of individuals believes that their ideology or identity is superior to others. How was the Islamic campaign not about nationalism? If they did not believe their religion was superior, why would they violently spread it?

And Rome's expansion into the middle east wasn't about hatred any more than Hitler's attempted expansion into Russia.

When did I say that Rome's expansion was about hatred?

Rome's expansion was for the same reasons as any other imperialistic power, nationalism and power. You cannot be imperialistic without being nationalistic for the same reasons as stated above. People like Urbane Guerrilla wants to forcefully spread their ideology of capitalism and democracy because they believe it is superior to all other socio-ecomomic setups.

Rome destroyed the Jewish Temple because of the Jewish rebellions. The Jews were rebelling because they would not accept being ruled by any foreign power, which is a form of nationalism.

The hatred between the peoples of the Middle East is ancient and visceral - two words understood by Westerners on a mostly intellectual level.

Yes, and where did this hatred stem from? That type of relationship doesn't just come from nowhere. It had to come from the clashing of two nationalistic and proud identities that has been passed on through the years. In order for that hatred to be passed down, both identities needed to be kept, and the hatred involved kept the nationalism. If you get rid of the nationalism, you will naturally get rid of the hatred as well.

To compare their relationship to racism is almost comical.

I was not comparing the actual relationship but comparing how hateful relationships begin, which is with an overly proud identity.

In order to hate a group of people you need to have classifications. In the United States, the largest classification is race, then we have religion and so forth. Those classifications are identities.

Some identities do not have any pride to them and are essentially meaningless. I am identified as someone who is raised in Wisconsin, but I do not hold any pride to being from Wisconsin therefore, I can not hold any hard feelings against anyone not from Wisconsin. If someone makes fun of me from being from Wisconsin, I laugh at them for saying something that ridiculous. If I defended myself and my raised state, that would mean I do have pride in my state and have potential nationalism in that area.

To be proud of an identity very easily leads to nationalism. I am a student of the University of Minnesota. When the University of Iowa comes to play football against us, we do not like the Hawkeye fans and verbally attack them at any given chance.

So in this situation we have two identities where the population of each are overly proud of their identity to the point where they think they are superior to the other. There is no real reasoning why I should hate the Iowa fans and they have no real reasoning why they should hate me. But we still do and the only reason that tradition of hatred gets passed down is because of nationialism. If University of Minnesota fans did not think that their school was superior to Iowa, as irrational as that seems, that rivalry would not exist.

Our situation is the same for Jews and Muslims except theirs is on a much more stronger and deeper level. But the fact that both are fueled by nationalism stays the same.

[xoxoxoBruce]

We often see muslims fighting muslims in the middle-east, when nationalism trumps religion. When muslims band together, across national borders, to fight infidels, that is not nationalism.
If you choose to defend Minnesota, it's statism not nationalism.
I think you're definition of nationalism is much too broad to make clear/concise arguments that people will understand.

[piercehawkeye45]

I use nationalism as an identity that feels superior to other identities. I defined it in my argument because it is not necessary used commonly by that definition. But we do have other examples of broader definitions of nationalist with white nationalists.

I used that term because there is no other word that fits my definition and that is by far the closest.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That is the accepted definition of nationalism within a particular nation, but when you apply it to larger or smaller groups, even with a disclaimer, it's confusing.
Probably because nationalism, unlike many of the other labels that have cropped up in international politics during the last 20 years, goes way back, with most people understanding what it is.
Or perhaps I'm an old fogey.

[classicman]

...or both.

[classicman]

This just in...
McKinney relief boat hit by Israeli ship

The boat, which set off from Cyprus Monday wanted to make a statement and deliver medical supplies to embattled Gaza. The trip’s organizers said the boat was clearly in international waters, 90 miles off the coast of Gaza, at the time of its close encounter with the Israeli navy.

“Our boat was rammed three times, twice in the front and one on the side,” McKinney told CNN Tuesday morning. “Our mission was a peaceful mission. Our mission was thwarted by the aggressiveness of the Israeli military.”

Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for Israel’s Foreign Ministry, denied there had been any shooting although the two ships had made “physical contact.”

Palmor said there was no response to a radio warning to the Dignity, and the vessel then tried to out-maneuver the Israeli patrol boat, leading to the collision.

Cyprus state radio said the Cypriot government would seek explanations from Israel over the incident.

McKinney called on President-elect Obama to address the Gaza crisis, saying the weapons being used by Israel were supplied by the United States.

McKinney denied that the incident was an accident. “What the Israelis are saying is outright disinformation,” she said. “What happened to us last night was a direct threat to our mission, but not our cause.”

Palmor called those allegations “absurd.”

“There is no intention on the part of the Israeli navy to ram anybody,” Palmor said.

*underline mine* lol - She doesn't even care what Bush, the sitting president, has to say. She wants Obama to say something. What's he gonna say? "I'll look into it in 3 weeks"

[xoxoxoBruce]

Nothing new for Israel.

[TheMercenary]

A better headline could have been: "McKinney lost at sea."

[classicman]

Shhhh! As the world waits for Obama to voice his opinion on Gaza, America's president-in-waiting hits the golf course

Barack Obama remained silent over the violence in Gaza as Israel today threatened to continue its attacks for weeks.

Instead, the president-elect is continuing his 12-day Christmas holiday in Hawaii and was seen enjoying a round of golf.
He joined a group of friends at a private club near his £6million rented, beach-front holiday home in Hawaii yesterday.

World leaders, including Gordon Brown and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, have called for an immediate ceasefire.

Mr Ban even said that Israel’s response attacks from Gaza amounted to an ‘excessive use of force’.

But Mr Obama has made the decision to leave all comments to outgoing President George Bush, who has so far chosen only to attack Hamas.

On the golf course, his security team even turned away a letter from pro-Palestinian campaigners urging him to help stop the four-day-old violence.

A couple comments from the bottom of a the article - Perspective IS reality. Amazing how we can look at the same situation and come away with totally different views of it. Guess we see what we want to see.

You do realize America ALREADY has a president? One who should be taking some sort of stand against this atrocity? But hes too busy looking for reasons to create propaganda and attack another country (Iran, if you haven't already guessed). Obama is not to be a scapegoat, take a look at what Bush is doing right now and see hes already planned to leave Obama with a shaky platform to take come January.

This guy is a complete fraud who is in way over his head! And what is this nonsense about there being only one president at a time? That never kept him from voicing his opinion(s) in the past. Let's face facts! This man was obsessed with becoming president not being president.

[piercehawkeye45]

Classicman, what are you trying to prove?

Obama is doing what he has always done, strategically playing the public perception game. This incident could have no positive effects for Obama since both sides have made extreme actions so why in the hell would he make a statement if he doesn't have to?

He is playing the game that all politicians play. Do not be surprised by this and soon, with your endless efforts, people will stop reading your threads as just anti-Obama babble.

[TheMercenary]

Bon voyage, Jihad Cindy McKinney; Update: Israeli Navy turns back S.S. Moonbat

By Michelle Malkin • December 30, 2008 12:36 AM

Cindy’s ship intercepted and turned back after crashing into Israeli Navy gunboat…



Move over, Hanoi Jane Fonda. Jihad Cindy McKinney is sailing to Gaza to deliver medical supplies to Hamas.

Is it a one-way ticket? We can only hope. Via the AJC:

Former Georgia congresswoman Cynthia McKinney is a high-profile member of a boatload of activists that set sail Monday from Cyprus to deliver medicine to war-torn Gaza.

McKinney, who ran as the Green Party candidate for president, sees the voyage as a humanitarian mission, said her father, former Georgia state Rep. Billy McKinney.

“Her mother did not want her to go,” he said, referring to concerns at home for her safety. “But I think that certain people have missions in life and you can’t deter them.”

The activists, organized by the Free Gaza Group, said their 66-foot yacht called “SS Dignity” would defy an Israeli blockade of Gaza and ferry 16 activists and three tons of Cypriot-donated supplies. The supplies are intended to help treat the wounded from Israeli bombings against targets in Gaza, in retaliation for rocket fire aimed at civilians in southern Israeli towns.

Flashback: Cynthia McKinney’s Arab and Islamist Donors

***

Update 5:22am Eastern. Carl in Jerusalem reports that the S.S. Moonbat has been turned back by the Israeli Navy…

The yacht carrying former US Congresscritter and Green Party Presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney tried to outmaneuver an Israeli navy gunboat off Gaza Tuesday morning. The yacht rammed into the Israeli gunboat, which then turned it around and sent it back to Cyprus.
Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the boat ignored an Israeli radio order to turn back early Tuesday. He said the boat tried to outmaneuver the navy ship and crashed into it, lightly damaging both vessels. The navy then escorted the boat to the territorial waters of Cyprus.

Protest boat organizer Derek Graham said the Israeli ship “rammed” the protest boat.
According to the ‘Free Gaza’ website of the boat’s organizers (which I will not grace with a link), the boat is now headed to ’safety’ in Lebanon.



http://michellemalkin.com/2008/12/30...inney/?print=1

[Undertoad]

Palestinian roots for Israel against Hamas:

It's a strange world, but there you have it. I've been talking to friends of mine, former Palestinian Authority intelligence officials (ejected from power by the Hamas coup), and they tell me that not only are they rooting for the Israelis to decimate Hamas, but that Fatah has actually been assisting the Israelis with targeting information. One of my friends -- if you want to know why they're my friends, read this book -- told me that one of his comrades was thrown off a high-rise building in Gaza City last year by Hamas, and so he sheds no tears for the Hamas dead. "Let the Israelis kill them," he said. "They've brought only trouble for my people."