Alternate Universe

[piercehawkeye45]

UG, you do realize that most of these oppressive rulers are there because of us, right?

There was a democracy in Iran before 1953.

And we back the very dangerous regimes in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

I can't say these countries will become democracies but they will become much less oppressive if we stop backing them and allow someone else to take charge.

[Undertoad]

I suppose I would have militarily supported the Kurdish move to independence as part of a coalition and lifted the embargo. ... The long view is energy independence and free trade with willing partners.

Those Kurds sit on top of a lot of oil.

Too bad you are now at effective, if not actual war with at least four different countries, with an ally that has never won any battle ever, and can't get any of that oil to a port OR pipeline, guaranteeing a long, hard time and probably the inevitable slaughtering of your friends.

[Griff]

A regional agreement guaranteeing borders is not out of the question. Even now Kurds in Iraq are standing down while Turkey pummels the PKK.

[Undertoad]

Set whatever border you like, nobody's transporting their oil and the minute you leave, they're slaughtered.

[Griff]

The permanent relationships can be built while we are there. The Euros have substantial pull with the Turks. Once the price of oil in a pipeline to Turkey resembles the cost they'd be paying their own people for it, the desire for stable pricing and a piece of the action will trump expansionism especially if Turkish oil people are part of the mix.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That sounds suspiciously like, just let the oil barons control the destiny of the region (world), and we'll all live happily ever after.... except of course anyone that stands in their way.

[Undertoad]

I doubt they will focus on such nuance when the pipelines are being bombed and Americans dictating a solution cuts Kurdistan in half for the benefit of the Kurds. I think your solution would look a lot like today's situation. The funny thing is you'd lose the anti-war folks in exactly the same way you have now. What does Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria have to do with 9/11? And what if the Kurds find it more convenient to pipe their oil south? What difference does it make if their enemy to the north gets rich on them, or their enemy to the south? Now you have an empowered Iraq with the Hussein family still in charge.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Now you have an empowered Iraq with the Hussein family still in charge.

How do you mean this? Do you expect the Hussein women to return from exile in -- is it Monte Carlo? [I didn't look.]

Pierce, remember that pour faute de mieux is not depraved foreign policy, but exactly the thing we've been doing since our nation's inception. Blaming the U.S.'s policies for each and every social ill found in Araby is strictly from the propaganda book of those "very dangerous regimes." You're much more credulous about Arab propaganda than I am, as recollection of our disputes over Middle Eastern policy shows. I do believe becoming familiar with how the ruling circles of the Arab states came to power -- that is, you're going to have to become more familiar with Arab history from Morocco through Syria than I think you are -- will show how little we've had to do with it, and for how much time. Even the William Eaton-Hamet Karamanli expedition in the early 19th century amounted to about a company of foot soldiers and some naval support, primarily in logistics.

Even post-WW2, our involvement really didn't amount to anything much beyond telling the winners, "Congratulations on your success, and we're available to discuss trade agreements at your convenience."

[Undertoad]

Read the entire thread, bottom-poster.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Pierce, remember that pour faute de mieux is not depraved foreign policy, but exactly the thing we've been doing since our nation's inception. Blaming the U.S.'s policies for each and every social ill found in Araby is strictly from the propaganda book of those "very dangerous regimes." You're much more credulous about Arab propaganda than I am, as recollection of our disputes over Middle Eastern policy shows. I do believe becoming familiar with how the ruling circles of the Arab states came to power -- that is, you're going to have to become more familiar with Arab history from Morocco through Syria than I think you are -- will show how little we've had to do with it, and for how much time. Even the William Eaton-Hamet Karamanli expedition in the early 19th century amounted to about a company of foot soldiers and some naval support, primarily in logistics.

I don't blame every problem on the United State's policy, but I do realize that we need to share some responsibility for them. If the United States had a non-interventionist foreign policy, I realize that the Middle East would still not be comparable to the US when it comes to domestic issues, but I also recognize that we have made the problem worse by supporting a lot of the cruel leaders we see today in the area.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

You could have been talking this much sense all along, you know. Now you're sounding a lot less like a raving antisemite than you used to, which is encouraging. (That sort of thing is why I can't gag down supporting the excesses of the Palestinians, who haven't gotten out of the habit of crying victim while doing perp.)

[DanaC]

........*forcibly restrains self from jumping into this one*

[tw]

Originally Posted by DanaC

........*forcibly restrains self from jumping into this one*

There's a lot of dung there. Which one would you jump on?