Palestinians and "desperation"

[jaguar]

Man what a flame war from a moronic opinion writer with an IQ lower than room temperature.

your argument would look less than retarded.

Well isn't that a self-defeating statement.

If you read the article, you would have caught the bit where he talks about placating the Palestinians. And you would have remembered that he said that even 100 or 200 people intent on killing themselves (and taking Israeli citizens with them) would still be enough to wreak major havoc. And if you had looked at other stats, you would realize this to be true, as there have been exactly 20 suicide bombings this year - 2002 - and look what they've done.

98% of suicide bombers are stopped before they manage to detonate. DO the math. Look at the people, TIME had a study of each this year, comparing, what a diverse bunch they were too, graduates, fanatics, kids. Fucking hell I think the idea of a state based on 22% of their fucking land is generous enough. You've got the 40% of Israelis thinking they should remove all Palestinians from the west bank and Gaza - what the fuck do you expect?

If Israel stops responding, it is the real-world equivalent of bending over and spreading your cheeks. Do you truly honestly believe that Palestinian extremists will stop the bombings if Israel discontinues the killing of militants? That's a foolish notion, and it's laughable. No matter what you read, no matter what they say, it is not as simple as "they want the West Bank and Gaza and Golan back." Let us not forget that those lands were acquired in the 1967 Six Day war which, while started by Israel, was a pre-emptive strike against nations that were preparing to attack Israel.

Why was Hitler so damn popular after WW1? Because you had a large, desperate population looking for someone to blame. Fast forward 50 years, why are Hamas etc so popular.....hmmm

I was talking to the leader of the Palestinian delegation to Australia the other day (came to school for a talk) He was an atheist himself with made his views on this all the more interesting.

With millions of Muslims, no oil, corrupt leadership and a cultural tradition of extreme violence, there's very little chance that a Palestinian state would be a voice for peaceful and loving diplomacy.

Being under the thumb of the oh-so-fucking-civilized Israelis is such a goddamn improvement I suppose? Blindingly obvious aside, any set up state would be a: under intense scrutiny, b: intense aid, both would help create a reasonable government. In reality neither state is viable, Israel survives on $ from the US.

The opinion that it's out of desperation is widely repeated because it's intellectually convenient.

Its also based on sound logic (happy people don't kill themselves), anecdotal(Interviews), historical (after Oslo was a virtual halt on terror) and statistical evidence (vast majority wanted, and probably still do want peace (hard to take stats while being shot at by IDF)), unless like that pile of drivel you posted which appears to be posted on a series of fundamentally flawed analogies and logical leaps that defy human comprehension. My god this guy knows about about intellectually convenient arguemnts, the entire concept of "fantastic offer with 98% of wanted territory that arafat refused" bullshit i keep seeing circulated is such an utter falacy its nto funny. Starting with the obvious, its not 98%, its less than 22% of what the palastinian state was, secondly it divided palastinian territory into 3 areas, requiring pasing of Isreali military blockades to get between them. No part of jerusulem was even offered. My god i jsut noticed this guys arguemtn is that ethics are basicly ilrrelavent as long as miltary action is effective?! Omg.........I guess this guys solution to kashmir is to nuke pakistan and solve northern ireland by rounding up every irishman and forcing them into the sea.

Originally posted by jaguar
98% of suicide bombers are stopped before they manage to detonate.

Demonstrating that Israeli checkpoints and the military are doing a fine job in lessening Israeli civilian casualties.

Thanks for helping make our point.

[jaguar]

My point was it defeats the statement you made above that.....
why do i bother

[Yelof]

The number of people killed and injured in Israeli traffic accidents in 2001 was more than twice as many as all those who died or were hurt in terrorist attacks



Although this must be partially due to..

Drivers in Israel are undisciplined, don't bother to obey road signs or the rules of the road, and have virtually no road manners whatsoever.

I noticed that too. Israeli drivers are mental, I reckoned it comes from a proportion of them who learned how to drive tanks before cars

I reckon, of the countries I have visited, the worst drivers were

1) Israel
2) Egypt
3) Italy
4) Portugal

I'm only listing countries, mind you, if I was listing people I'd have to place myself somewhere high on the list as it took me eight goes to pass my drivers licence!

[MaggieL]

So, Yelof has been reduced to accusing Israelis of bad driving in "support" of his other arguments ? How lame.

[Yelof]

Actually if you read back through the tread you'll see that the Israelis being bad drivers slightly weakens my argument, as they are such bad drivers it is perhaps not so surprising so many of them die that way. I posted in response to dhamsaic's request for evidence to back up my earlier claim. Not so lame after all I think, or where you just pulling my leg?

Yelof - wrong peoples.

You said that more Palestinians are killed by bomb than by car each year. I asked you to produce facts that either

a) more Palestinians are killed each year by Israeli suicide bombers than are by car accidents

or

b) more Palestinians are killed by Israeli bombing, period, than are by car accidents.

[Yelof]

[I made an error of calculation here, when I first did this, dhamsaic kindly pointed out and I have made corrections, my original wrong figures will remain in brackets, as a reminder to myself to preview before posting]

You are right dhamsaic, I didn't provide the evidence you asked for, but lets have a go.

The actual statistics are hard to get but we can do some mental excercises.

First I need terrorist-"policing" deaths in Israel and PA areas 2001

The following I can only get out of a google cache a direct link brings me to the JP homepage

"The Jerusalem Post Monday December 31, 2001

659 killed in Israeli- Palestinian violence in 2001
More than 650 Israelis, Palestinians, and foreign citizens were killed in Israel and the territories during 2001, according to statistics released today by B'Tselem.
Israeli soldiers, police officers, and civilians killed 455 Palestinian civilians and members of the Palestinian Authority security services in the territories in 2001.
Another 10 Palestinians were killed inside Israel.
Eighty-six Israeli civilians and soldiers were killed by Palestinians
[It is these poor sods above I forgot to add in]
in the territories over the past year.
In addition, 101 Israeli civilians and soldiers were killed by Palestinians within Israel.
Seven foreign citizens were also killed by Palestinians in 2001.
In total, 659 people fell victim to regional violence in 2001."

If we are to take then according to the previous link I posted that twice as many Israelis died in car accidents then
approx 388 people died on the roads of Israel in 2001
[I wrote 216 here originally]



There are 5.9 Million Israelis

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/is.html

There are 3.2 Million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/gz.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/we.html

Let us for sake of argument assume that Israeli and palestine have the same skill level of driver and car use (in reality they are both prob. as bad but the Israelis do use cars a LOT more)

That gives us very approx 206 Palestinians killed in car accidents.

[I wrote 117 originally]

More Israelis die in car accidents then terrorism, more Palestinians die as a result of Israeli response, or as a result of Israeli agression, have it as you may, then probebly die in car accidents.

The truth is that all deaths whatever cause are horrible, we would wish that everything was being done to save lives. Both sides in this conflict are suffering, but unevenly, a solution that guarenteed security for Israeli but condemed the Palestinians to the current political limbo in which they are suffering should be condemed by all disinterested parties as inhuman.

Intentionally or unintentionally, you're skewing the numbers.

187 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, so approximately 380 traffic-related deaths in Israel in 2001.

That's 1 in every 15, 526 that will die in a car accident. If we get the percentage of deaths and multiply it by the number of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, we arrive at an approximation of 206 traffic-related deaths. So while it's still supportive of your claim, it's less dramatic than you previously posted.

However, this still doesn't answer the queston: how many Palestinians died in traffic accidents in 2001?

We cannot safely assume that our approximation is correct, given that different cultures have different driving styles. For example, if you go to Mexico City, you will notice that the driving is <b>much</b> different than it is here in the US. Assuming that Israeli and Palestinian death percentages are exactly alike is fine for a relatively uneducated guess, but it doesn't really hold water.

I'd still be interested in seeing actual statistics for Palestinian road deaths in 2001, but for now, we'll assume that your statement is correct.

[Yelof]

In my egarness to post
I did err by "Eighty-six Israeli civilians and soldiers were killed by Palestinians in the territories"
Opps well spotted..still as you point out doesn't change much..I will edit the original post to reflect the right estimates but I will also leave my error so as not to get myself off the hook for messing up

[Undertoad]

But really, all this is kind of irrelevant.

Terrorism accomplishes political destruction by combining the least number of resources with the greatest amount of inhumanity. The body count is irrelevant; if a similar targeted act of terrorism was directed at the President of the United States, for example, a body count of ONE would still be a political statement of utterly grave importance.

3000 dead at WTC, for example, is a horrifying number. But the tragedy is made more sobering, not less, at the idea that they were aiming for a higher number. And much more sobering that the economic system of not just the US, but the entire world, experienced an aftershock that probably led to much more suffering than the initial attack.

The extremists would like us ALL dead. And that, my friends, is the Big Picture.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Yelof
Not so lame after all I think, or where you just pulling my leg?

The whole thread has descended into deep lameness.

I saw no relevance in the incidence of traffic accidents among the Israelis, and still don't, and I think the nice picture of the white car is even less relevant than the alleged statistics.

[StrngTerrapin]

An interesting fact:
Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to protect its northern borders from the Hezzbolah (pardon the spelling) guerillas (supported, admittingly, by Iran). They created a 12 mile or so security zone in southern Lebanon, manned by the IDF, to prevent the guerillas from getting closer enough to fire rockets into, and infiltrate, northern Israel. In 2000, when the issue of the Israeli pullout from Lebanon was on the table, the Israeli's were promised by not only Lebanon, but also Syria (who effectively controls Lebanon) the Hezzbolah leaders that the terror would end if the pulled out. So...they did. They removed all forces from Lebanon, pulled into northern Israel, where they remain to this day. Yet, have we seen any stoppage of attacks on the northern frontier? The guerillas continue to operate effectively in the area, firing rockets on troops and civilians in northern Israel, kidnapping Israeli troops, etc. Just goes to point that just because the IDF might pull out of the terrorites gained in the 1967 war, the terrorism will not halt. They might give a little, but it will never be enough. The radical groups not only want the destruction of Israel, but the Jewish people as a whole. They will NOT stop until the whole land of Israel, and its Jewish inhaditants, are pushed into the sea. The country isn't that wide, they dont have much farther to go.
Israel must not pull out...and if it does, it needs to create a concrete scurity buffer zone, to prevent any un-authorized entry into the soverign state of Israel.

[Yelof]

On the other hand Israel pulled out of the Sinai Peninsula (concluding in 1982) and has had peace with Egypt ever since.

Was Israel getting attacked by suicide bombers from the Sinai prior to the withdrawal?